40S&W…Have you seen the deals?

See.......your stance is that "wildly successful" somehow means clown show makes no sense at all.

The .40 has failed and been dumped by most police agencies and the 9mm has taken over.

So your insistence on calling the 9mm a "clown show" is indeed hard to figure.

This seems to confuse you quite a bit.

The Government was ordering so much .40 S&W, for Twenty-Five years, that the manufactures had massive runs of it, for the economy, and then sold off the surplus.

When the 9mm Clown-show started, was the end of it.

Send in the clowns.




Red
 
The “clown show “ at the FBI has been their involvement in politics for the past 8-9 years or so. If a ranking FBI person told me to buy option A, I would buy anything but option A. A lot of people have lost trust in them because of their upper management.

Funny, how the FBI 9mm Clown-show coincided with the Democrat National Socialist Federal Circus.

Huh...




Red
 
The real Clown-show is the insecure 9mm red-nose-and-floppy-shoe types coming into a .40 S&W thread on their unicycles, juggling their 9mm hype, fraud, and denial.

Fact: The FBI requested, and accepted, the .40 S&W as a replacement for the failure you are embracing known as the 9mm Luger... for Twenty-Five years.

Red

And the FBI and most everybody else dumped the .40 when advances in bullet construction made the 9mm a better choice.

So......your position IS that the round that took over for the discarded .40 and has been performing successfully for the vast majority of law enforcement agencies for years is somehow the FAILURE.

And the .40 S&W.......the round that failed and had to be replaced by the 9mm.......is a success.

And those who disagree with you are "red-nose-and-floppy-shoe types coming into a .40 S&W thread on their unicycles, juggling their 9mm hype, fraud, and denial."

If that's honestly what you think........I don't feel I should try to reason with you.

:)
 
And the FBI and most everybody else dumped the .40 when advances in bullet construction made the 9mm a better choice.

So......your position IS that the round that took over for the discarded .40 and has been performing successfully for the vast majority of law enforcement agencies for years is somehow the FAILURE.

And the .40 S&W.......the round that failed and had to be replaced by the 9mm.......is a success.

And those who disagree with you are "red-nose-and-floppy-shoe types coming into a .40 S&W thread on their unicycles, juggling their 9mm hype, fraud, and denial."

If that's honestly what you think........I don't feel I should try to reason with you.

:)

That was their sales pitch, for the HR department and Training Budget accountants fraud, "advances in bullet construction," to excuse an inferior, now barely adequate, round.


Do you actually feel that the superior .40 S&W, or .45 ACP for that matter, was not made even better as well?

The 9mm - has proven that, unless you are attacked by ballistic gel, you have accepted a risk of bullet failure and failure-to-stop not present with its replacement, .40 S&W.

Don't let that kool-aid habit of yours get you into SD trouble.




Red
 
That was their sales pitch, for the HR department and Training Budget accountants fraud, "advances in bullet construction," to excuse an inferior, now barely adequate, round.


Do you actually feel that the superior .40 S&W, or .45 ACP for that matter, was not made even better as well?

The 9mm - has proven that, unless you are attacked by ballistic gel, you have accepted a risk of bullet failure and failure-to-stop not present with its replacement, .40 S&W.

Don't let that kool-aid habit of yours get you into SD trouble.
Red

I wonder if you have any evidence that the 9mm beat the .40 based on the recommendations of the FBI HR department and budget accountants?

Or is this just something you came up with on your own without evidence?

And do you have evidence that the 9mm is failing to do the job for law enforcement?

If you thought you saw me drinking kool-aid I have to admit it was red wine........my doctor recommends it for my heart.

:)
 
I'm getting my popcorn ready to see people clubbing each other's heads. :). Come on guys. Are we running out of things to do? What does it matter?

I made similar comments on .30-06 vs .308. Same things happened. Certain things are holy to certain people. They are all tools. Pick the one you like to do the job you have to do.

I have .40 and a bunch of different calibers, some of which are bona fi obsolete. I still keep them. My go-to pistol is Glock 23 in .40 s&w with 3 different conversion barrels. I don't care what the others say. I just pick the caliber to load whichever I feel like. I'm pretty sure it would hurt the same (like hell) to the bad guy.

Keep going!

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
I'm getting my popcorn ready to see people clubbing each other's heads. :). Come on guys. Are we running out of things to do? What does it matter?

I made similar comments on .30-06 vs .308. Same things happened. Certain things are holy to certain people. They are all tools. Pick the one you like to do the job you have to do.

I have .40 and a bunch of different calibers, some of which are bona fi obsolete. I still keep them. My go-to pistol is Glock 23 in .40 s&w with 3 different conversion barrels. I don't care what the others say. I just pick the caliber to load whichever I feel like. I'm pretty sure it would hurt the same (like hell) to the bad guy.

Keep going!

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

A 357Sig 5.3" LWD conversion barrel for the Glock G23 is outstanding with Hornady Custom 147 gr. XTP.


Great field round.

Funny how these "dead" cartridges keep embarrassing the 9mm.




Red
 
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I wonder if you have any evidence that the 9mm beat the .40 based on the recommendations of the FBI HR department and budget accountants?

Or is this just something you came up with on your own without evidence?

And do you have evidence that the 9mm is failing to do the job for law enforcement?

If you thought you saw me drinking kool-aid I have to admit it was red wine........my doctor recommends it for my heart.

:)

Given the disparity in both impact Energy and expanded bullet area, ~ 3:4 for both, that gives the .40 S&W a (1.33)^2 advantage, round it to 1.77.

That's over Three 9mm hits(3.54) for every Two(2) .40 S&W hits.

And since that extra hit-and-a-half includes the probability of a miss, call it 1:3, it leaves a pretty solid Two(2) extra rounds fired, on top of the Two initial hits, to equal Two hits from a .40 S&W.

So, one would need a 9mm magazine with Twice(2x) the capacity of the .40 S&W, not simply the Two or so additional rounds in a std. capacity service pistol.

Along with the extra time and collateral damage incurred while shooting those extra hits... and misses.




Red
 
5 years from now the 30 Super Carry or something very similar but with a fancier name will be dethroning the 9mm, just wait.
Maybe even a moon clip small revolver or two.
 
Given the disparity in both impact Energy and expanded bullet area, ~ 3:4 for both, that gives the .40 S&W a (1.33)^2 advantage, round it to 1.77.

That's over Three 9mm hits(3.54) for every Two(2) .40 S&W hits.

And since that extra hit-and-a-half includes the probability of a miss, call it 1:3, it leaves a pretty solid Two(2) extra rounds fired, on top of the Two initial hits, to equal Two hits from a .40 S&W.

So, one would need a 9mm magazine with Twice(2x) the capacity of the .40 S&W, not simply the Two or so additional rounds in a std. capacity service pistol.
Unfortunately no one has been able to correlate the result of this "calculation" to an advantage in real-world gunfights. If this make you feel good about your choice, that's great, but it's not going to satisfy anyone looking for real evidence.
easier for secretaries to shoot 9mm round.
Again, FBI secretaries are not required to qualify with firearms. You know this is a false claim because you've been corrected before.
Fact: The FBI requested, and accepted, the .40 S&W as a replacement for the failure you are embracing known as the 9mm Luger... for Twenty-Five years.
Not a fact.

The FBI did not request the .40S&W. S&W developed it independently and the FBI didn't adopt it until it had been on the market for 7 years.

The FBI did not use the .40S&W for 25 years, you're off by about 6 years. You know this is a false claim because you've been corrected before.

Does it bother you at all that so much of what you have based your opinions on is actually incorrect? It should. If you care about the topic, why not put some effort into learning the facts?
That was their sales pitch, for the HR department and Training Budget accountants fraud, "advances in bullet construction," to excuse an inferior, now barely adequate, round.
Once there were a number of 9mm loadings on the market that passed the FBI ammunition testing protocol, it was pretty hard for them to say it wasn't sufficient for their needs. By definition, it was.
5 years from now the 30 Super Carry or something very similar but with a fancier name will be dethroning the 9mm, just wait.
It could happen, but it's not so very likely. The 9mm was introduced in 1901 and has not only survived for over 120 years, but has also maintained a huge market share of the centerfire handgun market and even grown in popularity over the past years. That's a lot of time for some other cartridge to dethrone it and yet, here it still is, and stronger than ever.

Not that this really has anything to do with popularity. A cartridge's suitability for self-defense is not really related to its popularity or .22LR would be the best self-defense cartridge out there.

Here's the bottom line. No one has been able to demonstrate that any members of the service pistol caliber class provide a significant advantage over the other members of the performance class in real-world gunfights. That's why this debate continues.

As yourself: If there's a significant difference between the .40S&W and the 9mm, why isn't it showing up on the streets? How could it provide a practical advantage but without that advantage being detectable by the many people and organizations who study such things and are trying to pick a winner?

Forget about the FBI if you don't trust them. They're not the only entity trying to evaluate handgun self-defense calibers. It's of interest to many people and many organizations. And many people and organizations are studying the topic. But still nobody can point to a clear winner.

Are we supposed to believe that the reason they can't pick a clear winner based on real-world gunfights is because there's a big difference in performance? That makes no sense at all.

The only logical conclusion is that if there is a difference, it can't be a significant one--because if it was significant we'd be able to detect it, the evidence would be out there for everyone to see and the debate would be over.
 
Given the disparity in both impact Energy and expanded bullet area, ~ 3:4 for both, that gives the .40 S&W a (1.33)^2 advantage, round it to 1.77.

That's over Three 9mm hits(3.54) for every Two(2) .40 S&W hits.

And since that extra hit-and-a-half includes the probability of a miss, call it 1:3, it leaves a pretty solid Two(2) extra rounds fired, on top of the Two initial hits, to equal Two hits from a .40 S&W.

So, one would need a 9mm magazine with Twice(2x) the capacity of the .40 S&W, not simply the Two or so additional rounds in a std. capacity service pistol.

Along with the extra time and collateral damage incurred while shooting those extra hits... and misses.

Red

Come on, Red.

You ignored my questions.

You failed to answer my questions and just posted some numbers that show the .40 is a little more powerful than the 9mm.

We already knew that--in fact, the resulting blast and recoil is a large part of why the .40 failed as a law enforcement round.

So could you please answer my questions?
 
5 years from now the 30 Super Carry or something very similar but with a fancier name will be dethroning the 9mm, just wait.
We'll be waiting a long time for that, Pumpk........like forever.

Do you have any reason for thinking that or is it just a hunch?

I've never seen ANYTHING to indicate that's a possibility.
 
The 9mm has two advantages over the 40
Recoil and increased capacity of ammo in the same size weapon.
A high performance 30-32 would give these same advantages over the 9mm.
Do you really think our government is going to stop wanting to waste our money?
 
The 9mm has two advantages over the 40
Recoil and increased capacity of ammo in the same size weapon.
A high performance 30-32 would give these same advantages over the 9mm.
Do you really think our government is going to stop wanting to waste our money?


It’s not as if the standard military semiautomatic pistol cartridge has changed a lot of times in the time since the US military has been using semiautomatic pistols. I get that people like to think the government wastes money for the heck of it, but in my experience there are definite exceptions to that “rule”.
 
The 9mm has two advantages over the 40
Recoil and increased capacity of ammo in the same size weapon.
A high performance 30-32 would give these same advantages over the 9mm.
Do you really think our government is going to stop wanting to waste our money?

Don't forget the third advantage.......that the 9mm offers lower ammo costs due to the huge volume produced.

A brand new .30 or .32 pistol would have costly ammo.

And what would happen to our compatibility with NATO?

No. The 9mm is a proven superior cartridge.

There will be no change.
 
Mr. Fink was a WWII veteran who fought in battle of the bulge. He would be 90 some years old if he is still with us. He was a NCO tank commander. He told me a bit of his adventures when he came to my shop.

He didn't like the 1911 he was given. He found himself a German p38 and carried that everyday. He got the ammo from dead German officers. Don't know whether he fired the sidearm at all though. Many a time he was told to get rid of that kraut gun or else. But the officers never gave him any real trouble. They had long guns in the tank. Brand new tommy guns that hardly were touched. He had never heard of tanker garand.

9mm has nothing wrong, neither do the other calibers. Nothing to do with government, its military, or its agencies. I paid for what I have, I get to pick what I like, just like what Mr Fink did, almost.

I never charged him for his repairs, even when he insisted. He had paid in full.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Don't forget the third advantage.......that the 9mm offers lower ammo costs due to the huge volume produced.

A brand new .30 or .32 pistol would have costly ammo.

And what would happen to our compatibility with NATO?

No. The 9mm is a proven superior cartridge.

There will be no change.
No one ever thought some of the highest tow rating half ton pickups would have a 213 Cubic Inch V-6 either.
Not to mention all the family cars (what few are left) having 4 cylinder engines.

Things never stop changing.

Not saying I’m happy with all of it, especially most new guns.
 
And the new 6.8x51 is only being adopted by 43% of the NATO countries.
So there’s the hole in that NATO compatibility argument.
 
No one ever thought some of the highest tow rating half ton pickups would have a 213 Cubic Inch V-6 either.
Not to mention all the family cars (what few are left) having 4 cylinder engines.

Things never stop changing.

Not saying I’m happy with all of it, especially most new guns.
Comparing cars and guns is not valid.

I agree that most of the overhyped "new" gun calibers are a waste of time and were not needed (except by ammo companies seeking new profits).

Like the .40 S&W for example.

:D
 
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