.38spl Wadcutter Hollow Point Bullet for Self Defence

[AlBundy]

I'm sure it would do fine, sure as hell beats nothing. I did see someone mention the FBI shootout and now I feel obligated to say that I heard one of the perps took one of those to the face, it split in half and didn't do anything. I would definitely recommend getting Gold Dots or some other well known, and unfortunately expensive, hollow points. A .38 is a little on the lighter side so I would try to get as much expansion and power out of it as I could. Something bonded and something +P. Check out hollow point expansion on youtube. It's really cool and informative. They test all different calibers and all different ammo.

 

[Hal]

I spent some time reading reports on bullets such as the Speer 158 LSWC HP and it seems to have a very good reputation. Why do you state "no ammo manufacturer markets a wadcutter as a defensive round" when there bullets available such as this

L(lead) S (semi) W (wadcutter) HP...
Not LWC - lead wadcutter.
As mentioned above, they're two different things.

It does appear though that BB does market a wadcutter as a defensive round.
The actual wording of their advertising leaves a lot open to speculation however.
Due to customer demand..sounds like people wanted it so they just gave it to them.
That flat nose, literally hammers living things...then goes on to say how many small critters it's done in.
They are also -"hard and properly lubed" - read that as they go in @ .357" go through @ .357" and come out @ .357".
Not a bad deal for a hunting round where a good blood trail and minimal meat damage is desired.
Not a great deal for a defensive round - especially in a crowded place..

There's also the matter of trying to fumble them into the chambers under high stress...
You're only kidding yourself if you even begin to think charging the cylinders with a speed loader filled with wadcutters during a high stress situation is going to fly.

It's blanket statements like this:

Wadcutters work well for defense in short barreled .38 Spls.

That irk me the most though.

If that's true, that they work well, then please provide some data to back that claim up.
Who tested and documented their effectivness?
Joe Schome and his kitchen table R&D lab?

Please provide some communication with Federal, Speer, Remington, etc. where they support that claim and say they are going to offer a wadcutter - not a semi wadcutter as a defensive round.

 

[grumpa72]

Hal,
Other than hollow base wadcutters turned upside down and loaded that way, a self-made hollow point, I believe you are right that there aren't any wadcutters designed for that. The OP wrote "wadcutter" and I read SEMI-wadcutter. So, "never mind". I DO like the lead semi-wadcutter hollow point, though.

 

[Hal]

I DO like the lead semi-wadcutter hollow point, though.

As do I.
IMHO - the SWC, has all the advantages of a WC but avoids, to a large extenet, the feed issues.
SWC's feed out of a speed loader very well.

As far as reversing a HBWC and trying to make some "super hollow point" out if it goes....
I know how badly that idea plays out.

Been there/tried that on a smaller scale.
I got the bright idea that if I turned the pellets around in my Sheridan pellet gun, I could make some wild ass hollow points out of them.
The results were - interesting.
Sometimes they would mushroom real nice. Sometimes the solid base would just blow through. Sometimes they would deform and "slide" sideways and come out of a stack of papers not in tthe back, but on the sides.
I beaned a good sized rat in the head with one and aside from what had to be a nasty headache, it was otherwise unhurt.

I know it's not apples to apples - but - it did show me the errors of my ways.
A few years later, when I found out what controlled expansion is all about, I understood why just having a big cavity on the front of a bullet doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

 

[Jim Watson]

Two or three lifetimes ago, one could get the wadcutter loaded to full power. This would be preferable to a roundnose in the days before handgun hollowpoints. The last of the breed seems to have been the 1939 Peters "Service Wad Cutter" at the same 158 gr weight and 860 fps velocity as the standard roundnose.

The question THEN might be, would you rather have a full wadcutter at 860 or the .38-44 High Velocity roundnose at 1125?
The answer might depend on whether you had a Detective Special or a Heavy Duty.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Hal- Sorry if my comment irked you.
HP ammunition is "iffy" at best from 2" bbl. guns. The W/C cuts a clean, caliber diameter hole. Recoil is mild and recovery time quick.

 

[grumpa72]

Bill De,
I have read the same thing which is why, apparently, the lead SWC HP has such a popular following. So many folks call it the FBI load (I guess I need to read up on that) that it must not be new and seems to be a well known defense round. Again, I have a lot more reading to do on .38 special in general and lead SWC HPs specifically.

grumpa

 

[Cossack]

The OP has a 2" Model 10, and I suggest Remington's LSWCHP. It seems to be made from a softer lead than Winchester and Speer bullets.

Here's an interesting informal test:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Special 158gr LSWCHP.htm

The LSWCHP +P load seems to have earned its reputation, and I trust it in my revolver. You could do worse.

Then again, you could also do worse than a simple Lead semi-wadcutter. Pick one. It should do fine.

 

[nate45]

I have read the same thing which is why, apparently, the lead SWC HP has such a popular following.

Bill is talking about the 148 grain FULL WADCUTTER @ 600-800 fps NOT the 158 grain LEAD SEMI-WADCUTTER HOLLOW POINT @ 890 fps, which is often referred to as the FBI Load. There seems to be some confusion between the two in this thread.

The ballistic gelatin test results, certainly show that the 148 grain Wadcutter has the necessary penetration to be potentially effective. Whether or not its lower velocity affects its terminal performance is a matter of debate. I tend to believe that accurate center mass shots would be affective, but thats just my opinion.

As far as the 158 grain LSWC HP (FBI load) goes its effectivness for defense is well documented.

 

[zxcvbob]

In my opinion, the problem with full wadcutters is not lack of terminal performance, but speed of reloading. Try it sometime with a speed loader -- they are clumsy.

I would have no problem carrying full-power wadcutters in my gun, and SWCHP or JHP's in the speed loader. (how likely am I to need a reload anyway?)

 

[jglsprings]

Just for clarity...

semi wadcutter (left) wadcutter (right)

hollow point wadcutter

Unfortunately it seems that NorthWest Custom Projectile doesn't make the "manstopper" any more.

P.S. Sorry I don't have a picture of lead semi wadcutter hollow point handy.... maybe later.

P.P.S.

Looks like NWCP has a new web site or company or whatever...
http://buckammo.com/index.php

P.P.P.S.

LSWCHP and a hollow base wadcutter (right side up & upside down)

 

[SIGSHR]

"Back in the Day" some of the "experts" endorsed the traditional 38 WC load for self defense. The arguments in favor of it are:
1. The broad striking surface of the bullet.
2. The low recoil which makes follow up shots easier and makes recoil management easier for women, older people, those troubled by arthritis, etc.
3. And the Iron Rule of Self Defense-only the hits count. A hit with a 38 WC beats a miss with a .357.

 

[B.N.Real]

The old round nose 38 special bullet has often been said to be one of the worst rounds ever designed for self defense.

I wonder if not only because the bullet was round but also because -that bullet was well lubed too- (being a soft lead bullet) that surface tension was minimized at the front of the bullet and it simply slid into flesh,tearing it and pushing a minimal channel through it which then closed behind it.

The end result is little bleeding and minimal awareness that one has been shot.

There was one police officer from many decades ago that was famous for his effectiveness in using that old round nose load.

I have'nt kept up with his name but this guy apparently hit the bad guys he aimed at-with deadly accuracy.

Just goes to show that when you do your part-even a round nose bullet can be effective.

 

[Ideal Tool]

Interesting posts! Elmer keith was around when quite a few old ex-civil war cavalrymen were still alive (from both sides!) He was told that when foraging,...or for man-killing for that matter, they prefered a round ball in their .36 Colts over the conical...if for instance a hog was spotted, a round ball always brought it down quicker than the sharp pointed conical.
Now a .36 is pretty close to a .358 & a round balls frontal area is nearly the same as a full wadcutter.

 

[Walklightly]

Post#6

The true, full wadcutters are generally "target" loads, and pretty mild. I dont ever remember seeing any factory loaded wadcutters that were loaded to +P pressures.

Thank you, but the 147g .38spl wadcutter can do some serious damage of tissue, and I'm not talking about Kleenex*.

Although I've never seen a "Wadcutter" in +P hallow point, they do make HBWC's.

Hand loader's know this, right?

 

[tet4]

After shooting a bunch of people and then inspecting them at the morge, jim cirillo came up with a full wad cutter that he liked the best from a standard 38. He liked them because if you shot someone in the head or another glancing area the wad cutter you dig in and penetrate. The standard pressure loading would apparently go through someone as well. Since hp standard pressure ammo may fail to penetrate and may glance off a target it makes some sense.

He also invented a wc with a slot in it like for a screw driver. This apparently would let the bullet open up some but keep very sharp edges.

 

[jmstr]

I'm interested in this thread as my wife inherited her dad's old .38spl, which I was informed was designed to use lead AND not designed to handle +P rounds. It is an Interarms-imported Rossi 851 [I think: has a 3" ribbed barrel] that was new in the 1980s.

That would be 'her' home defense handgun, if it came down to it. She doesn't like anything larger and doesn't want any semi-autos.

So I've been paying attention to .38special loads that were good for defense but not +P. This IS NOT optimal for defense, but based on the limits of what she is willing to use and the limits of said gun, this is what is needed. I tried to talk her into a newer .38special, but came to realize it would be her using her dad's old gun or her not using ANY gun. Given this alternative, I am looking for the most powerful standard pressure .38special lead round available.

Thanks for providing so much info so far!

 

[nate45]

People carry .32s, .380s even .22s and .25 ACPs for defense all the time. Some might argue that they are under powered(in their opinion), but they can't argue that people have successfully defended themselves with those cartridges. So the whole notion that someone couldn't defended themselves with most any .38 Special loading is rather ridiculous.

The standard pressure 158 grain Lead Round Nose .38 Special is deep penetrating and lethal. So common sense dictates that full wadcutters and semi-wadcutters at the same velocity would be too. Especially since their shape leads to the production of a better wound channel.

 

[aarondhgraham]

For my nightstand gun,,,

I have a 4" Colt Trooper Mk-III,,,
It's loaded with six rounds of .38 wadcutter.

I've seen what that relatively low velocity round does to feral dogs,,,
It cuts a very nasty wound in their flesh that stops them,,,
I do not feel underpowered with that round at all.

I remember from one article I read somewhere,,,
The LAPD called the round nose bullets widow-makers.

JMHO,,,

Aarond

.

 

[mes228]

Wadcutter

What tet4 wrote. I also read of Jim Cirrello (spelling?) designed ammo. Jim had real life experience.