.380 pistol or .38 special revolver

purely anectdotel, and I know we can find similar stories for ANY caliber. but work as a paramedic and "occasionally" get to see gun-shots up close and personal. one that'll always stick with was a heavy-set young man, rough neighborhood. took 3 shots of .380. one to the left flank, 1 to the cheek and one to the almost dead center of his forehead. dude was up and walking around. the bullet on his forehead glanced up and kinda followed around his skull for about 3 inches before going off trajectory. after seeing his damage, or lack thereof, I just haven't ever been interested in the caliber. this was over 5 years ago and I am sure their are great ammo's out there and my logic is irrational. but I have seen more dead taking a couple shots of 9mm than I have seen even injured to incapacitation by a .380.

by the way, I came back to see the kid in the hospital that sae night. I said "wow, I can't believe how good you are already. that musta been real eye opening, whats your plans after almost dying?"

him: "oh, i'm going back home, he is going to get his for sure"

me: "oh okay, good luck"

idiots.....

.380 vs. .38. I would take the .38 +p. I really have no informed view of which is "better". since I don't always get to hear what caliber a young man has been shot with, my real-world knowledge is limited, but I can read numbers well
 
I don't think the OP sounded particularly interested in experimenting and loading his own ammo to (possibly) dangerous levels.
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It's only dangerous if you do it in the wrong gun.

Not true. You can buy off-the-shelf (albeit +P) .380 that tromps most 38 Special and approaches 9mm.
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And a .38 +P is going to be better than a .380 +P.

But the .380 just does not have that much room for improvement. You can only put so much powder in the case regardless of how strong your particular .380 might be. The .38 has more powder capacity since it was originally a black powder cartridge.

I understand you are loyal to your caliber, and 38 Special is a fine round, but just because it looks a lot bigger doesn't mean it is much (if any) better.
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Actually, it is not "my caliber". I don't carry a .38, but I sometimes (very rarely) carry a snub nosed .357 (7-shot). My normal carry is either a .45ACP or a 10mm. I very rarely even carry a 9mm.

The bigger cartridge is definitely better *if* you utilize it. At standard velocities, neither round is fast enough to reliably open up a hollow point in all situations. As such, you need penetration. Neither are fast enough to generate much (if any) hydrostatic damages to tissue, so it's a question of how wide and how deep of a hole you can put in your assailant. Since the .38 is slightly larger diameter that the .380, the wound diameter advantage goes to the .38. Since the .38 can be loaded with heavier bullets than the .380, the penetration advantage goes to the .38 also. Capacity advantage probably goes to the .380 though unless you consider the 7 and 8 shot revolvers.

The .38 probably has an advantage on sight radius also, but that also means that the .380 probably has the advantage on compactness.

In my opinion, if the choice is between a .38 and a .380, you should go with a .45 ACP. ;)
 
NavyVet1959 said:
There is only 0.04" difference in the OAL of the .38 and .357. That's really not much. As such, with a suitably strong .38, you could load it to .357 power levels.
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Then it is no longer a .38 special, but a .357, and would not be suitable in guns chambered in .38 special.


NavyVet1959 said:
The case length for the .38 special is 1.155". That allows the .38 to have quite a bit more powder capacity than the .380. Plus, the .38 has a slightly greater diameter case which would increase the powder capacity even more
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NavyVet1959 said:
But the .380 just does not have that much room for improvement. You can only put so much powder in the case regardless of how strong your particular .380 might be. The .38 has more powder capacity since it was originally a black powder cartridge.
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The reason the .38 special case so long is because like you noted it was a black powder cartridge, that doesn't in any way translate to since you have all that extra space take advantage and fill that sucker up. That's a good way to blow up your gun, lose a finger, or go blind.
 
Not true. You can buy off-the-shelf (albeit +P) .380 that tromps most 38 Special and approaches 9mm.
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There is no SAAMI spec for 380+p so anything marked as such isn't held to SAAMI standards, and I'd also like to know who loads 158gr@ 890fps in a 380.
 
Then it is no longer a .38 special, but a .357, and would not be suitable in guns chambered in .38 special.
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Again, it DEPENDS upon the firearm.

Look a the Ruger SP101 for example. They make the exact same model in .357 mag and .38+P. That would be a good candidate for a .38 that could take .357 loads. Unless they did some special heat treating on the .357 model, there's a pretty good chance that the .38 model will handle .357 loads.


The reason the .38 special case so long is because like you noted it was a black powder cartridge, that doesn't in any way translate to since you have all that extra space take advantage and fill that sucker up. That's a good way to blow up your gun, lose a finger, or go blind.
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With more space, you can choose a powder that might be more optimal for your powder and barrel length to get the most out of the round without exceeding the max pressure for the firearm. With a low capacity case like the .380, you just don't have much flexibility in that matter.

Looking at the Alliant Unique powder and the 90 gr Speer GDHP bullet, the powder loading is 4.6 gr for 1034 fps (213.61 ft-lbs).

For the .38 the loading for Unique is 5.8 gr for 1065 fps with the 110 gr Speer GDHP bullet (276.97 ft-lbs). That's a 29.7% increase in kinetic energy over the .380.

If you go to the .38+P though, the 110 gr Speer GDHP load becomes 6.3 gr of Unique f(1.445" OAL) or 1117 fps (304.68 ft-lbs). That's a 42.6% increase over the .380.

A .357 load for a similar bullet (110 gr Speer UCHP) is 9.7 gr of Unique (1.575" OAL) for 1447 fps (511.3 ft-lbs). That's a 139% increase over the .380.

I could not find a listing for a .380+P in the Alliant reloading online manual

Not every .38+P revolver is going to be strong enough for .357 loads, but there are a couple that very well might be.

Now, if you are just looking at commercial offerings and want to compare apples to apples, then let's look at the Underwood Ammo offerings.

In .38+P, they have a 105 gr bullet that gets 1200 fps for 336 ft-lbs. They also have a 125 gr XTP JHP that gets 1200 fps for 400 ft-lbs.

In .380+P, they have a 102 gr bullet that gets 1060 fps for 255 ft-lbs.

There's just only so much you can do with the smaller case of the .380 though.

Sure, people have died from being shot with a .380, but people have also died from being shot with a .22 or a .25 round. It's not good enough that they *eventually* die from the round, but rather that it *stops* them so that they can't continue whatever act caused you to have to shoot them in the first place. If you want the concealability of a mouse gun like most .380s, you will have to understand that it will have limitations on power. Like with everything else in life, you have to balance the pros and cons of whatever firearm / caliber you choose.
 
Originally posted by db4570
Quote:
With a .380, you can load it to perhaps low .38 power levels.

Not true. You can buy off-the-shelf (albeit +P) .380 that tromps most 38 Special and approaches 9mm.

I understand you are loyal to your caliber, and 38 Special is a fine round, but just because it looks a lot bigger doesn't mean it is much (if any) better.

David
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The only factory .380 +P ammo I'm aware of is from boutique ammo houses like Buffalo Bore and Underwood. While they are impressive, if you compare them to the .38 Special offerings from the same companies, you'll see that the .380 +P doesn't "tromp" even standard pressure .38 Specials from the boutique makers, much less their .38 +P.
 
Okay. Here are the numbers. You can hand pick whatever loads you want, but I was talking about "mainstream" .38 special vs. "+P" or, I'll grant "boutique" .380 rounds. I was trying to contradict NavyVet's assertion that even hot .380s are no match for standard .38.

Can we agree that Federal Hydra-Shok is a pretty good "mainstream" .38 round? And that Underwood .380 is a well respected .380 +P round? The .38 HydraShok is loaded at 110 gr at 980 fps; the .380 +p is 102 gr at 1060 fps. The .380 is a tiny bit lighter and a bit faster. But pretty similar.

I stand corrected that the .380 +P doesn't necessarily "tromp" the regular .38, but it's at least as hot and maybe a hair hotter.

What I think it all boils down to is either round is fine. For every anecdote I hear about how .380 bounces off the fur of a gerbil, I hear 5 times as many about how .38 won't go through someone's eyeball. Or some other such nonsense.

We lose track of the fact that, yes, of course you can always go bigger and badder, but either .38 or .380 is a powerful and deadly round. The rest is splitting hairs.

Do you like revolvers or autos? Choose accordingly. The rest is just nit-picking, and maybe caliber fan-boy-ism. Except for Navy-Vet:

In my opinion, if the choice is between a .38 and a .380, you should go with a .45 ACP.
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who is right in appreciating any gun that you can fit your thumb into the barrel of. ;)

David
 
Okay. Here are the numbers. You can hand pick whatever loads you want, but I was talking about "mainstream" .38 special vs. "+P" or, I'll grant "boutique" .380 rounds. I was trying to contradict NavyVet's assertion that even hot .380s are no match for standard .38.

Can we agree that Federal Hydra-Shok is a pretty good "mainstream" .38 round? And that Underwood .380 is a well respected .380 +P round? The .38 HydraShok is loaded at 110 gr at 980 fps; the .380 +p is 102 gr at 1060 fps. The .380 is a tiny bit lighter and a bit faster. But pretty similar.
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The problem with your comparison is that there are no "mainstream" .380 +P loadings because, as mavracer pointed out, .380 Auto +P is not a SAAMI recognized designation. SAAMI only recognizes a +P designation in three handgun calibers: .38 Special, 9mm Luger, and .45 ACP (.38 Super Auto +P is also recognized, but the +P is just added to differentiate from the older, obsolete .38 ACP cartridge; there is no difference between .38 Super +P and standard .38 Super). Nobody but the boutique ammo houses will load a .380 +P because only the boutique ammo houses are willing to load a non-SAAMI recognized cartridge. If you're going to bring Underwood's .380 +P ammo into comparison, you should also bring their .38 +P ammo in because one is no more or less "mainstream" than the other.

Also, your point that Underwood's .380 +P is so similar to Federal's standard pressure .38 really kind of proves NavyVet's assertion that a .380 can be loaded to "low" .38 power levels (the Federal Hydra Shok you cited is a standard pressure .38 Special loading and not a particularly powerful one at that).

The point I'm trying to get across here is that unless you cherry pick the very best/most powerful .380 loading and compare it to the worst/most underpowered .38 Special loading, the .38 Special is the more powerful cartridge of the two. The larger case and SAAMI recognized +P designation allow the .38 Special to shoot a heavier bullet at the same or higher velocity without exceeding its pressure limits. Now, I won't argue that a semi-automatic, of which there are many more in .380, offers some advantages over a revolver that, in some peoples' opinion, may offset the power of a .38 Special. The CZ-83 that I bought on Saturday holds 14 rounds instead of five and that is a difference that can't be ignored (though my S&W J-Frame still fits in my pocket a lot easier). However, from a purely ballistics standpoint, the .38 Special is the superior cartridge.
 
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Look a the Ruger SP101 for example. They make the exact same model in .357 mag and .38+P. That would be a good candidate for a .38 that could take .357 loads. Unless they did some special heat treating on the .357 model, there's a pretty good chance that the .38 model will handle .357 loads.
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:eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
I would like to ask the guys that discount the 380 for self defense, what are you basing your opinion on ? How many of you have been shot in the chest at close range with one ?
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Typical straw man argument, seen all too often, and not worthy of TFL.
Would you like to be shot in the chest or the base of the skull with a .22LR?
Or shot in the eye with a .177 pellet?
Rhetoric at it's finest.
 
My M36 in a Bianchi pock holster in my cargo shorts, right front pocket is undetectable as I have carried it that way for more than ten years. I do not understand all the posts about how a snubbie is harder to conceal than a small auto.
 
I once owned a five shot .38 snub nose.
Good gun but way larger and heaviet than the 6+1 .380 I now carry on occasion in a pocket holster.
Pants stay too. :)
 
Ok I will admit I have not read all the comments here. I am at work sneaking them in.:rolleyes:

I had read the comments about the .380 and the 38 being similar when a 110gr bullet is being used in the 38.

If carrying a 38 I would not use that bullet.
I would use the 38 standard 158 gr bullet. That gives the 38 much more power and out strips the .380 by a wide margin.

That being said. I carry both a .380 when I need a pocket piece and the J frame inside the waist band. Although my J frame is in 327 magnum for a little extra umph.
I would carry the 38 if I had it.
 
I have a suitcase of old gun magazines and every other one has an article on this subject. It was if the editor was short a few pages, he grabbed the first article on the stack of .380 vs .38 and said "We haven't run one of these in six weeks, run this".

I just Goggled the subject and in .63 seconds came up with 426,000 hits.

The gist is that all other things being equal, they are similar.
 
Quote: .380 pistol with 6 rounds or a small .38 special revolver such as
the S&W 642 with 5 rounds for concealed carry? Your choice?

I sat on that fence for a while. I ended up with an LCP. I wanted something easily concealable and that would work in a very close quarters defensive situation. It fits my purposes of close in and personal defense to a tee and is almost invisible in my pocket in a DeSantis Nemisis pocket holster.
 
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