Originally posted by rebs
I would like to ask the guys that discount the 380 for self defense, what are you basing your opinion on ? How many of you have been shot in the chest at close range with one ? How many of you have seen the results of an actual shooting where a 380 was used ?
I don't completely discount the .380, but I do think that the .38 Special, particularly in a +P loading, is quite a bit better. Even the best performing JHP rounds in .380 like Hornady Critical Defense or Federal Hydra-Shok often have trouble both expanding reliably and penetrating at least 12" in ballistic gel from what most would consider a "full size" .380 such as a Walther PP, Bersa Thunder, Sig P232, or CZ-83. From the newer, smaller, variety of .380's such as the Kel-Tec P3AT, Ruger LCP, S&W Bodyguard, and Taurus TCP, the performance of these rounds gets even more problematic due to the reduced velocity attained from >3" barrels.
The better .38 Special +P loadings like Speer 135 gr SBGD or Remington 158 gr LSWCHP "FBI Load" can both reliably expand and penetrate 12" or better in ballistic gel even from a 1 7/8" barrel. I feel comfortable with hollowpoint ammo in a .38 Special but from the micro .380's at least, I'll stick with FMJ to at least ensure adequate penetration.
Originally posted by Dragline45
Sure you can shoot heavier bullets out of the .38, but due to such a short barrel those heavier bullets when using hollow points tend not to expand as reliably as say a 124gr bullet.
As has been mentioned, both Speer's 135 gr Gold Dot and Remington's 158 gr "FBI Load" have good reputations for expansion from short barrels. Even in you drop down to a 125 gr bullet, that's still 39% heavier than most .380 JHP's (90 gr seems to be the most popular weight for .380 JHP's).
Originally posted by Dragline45
Here is a look comparing Remington Golden Saber's in both .38 +P and standard pressure .380. As you can see, not much difference at all. I would rather have a couple extra rounds and the ability to reload faster with the .380 over a .38 round that's just a bit heavier and faster. While an extra 2 rounds might not make a difference between say a Glock 17 and 19, when you are limited to 5 rounds in a snub, an extra 2 rounds is a HUGE increase.
Remington Golden Saber 38 Special +P 125gr
Muzzle velocity: 975 fps
Muzzle energy: 264 ft lbs
Remington Golden Saber Ammunition 380 ACP 102 Grain
Muzzle Velocity: 940 fps
Muzzle Energy: 200 ft. lbs.
You seem to have some interesting ideas about what does and does not represent a significant difference. You say that 2 rounds of ammo, a 40% increase, is "huge" but that 23% more bullet weight
and 32% more energy is "not much difference at all". Also, the difference in terminal performance between those two loadings is quite striking. Here are tests of both from tnoutdoors9:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRe6BzIqu6U&list=PLED7C307FC0D5B236&index=15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATTBudWGunI&list=PLED7C307FC0D5B236&index=1
In short, the .38 +P Golden Saber gave almost ideal performance expanding to 0.618" and penetrating 13.75" while the .380 Golden Saber completely failed to expand due to denim clogging the JHP cavity. It is also worthy of mention that the .38 test gun was a standard 1 7/8" barrel S&W 438 while the .380 test gun was the Bersa Thunder 380 Plus. The Bersa is substantially larger and has quite a bit longer barrel (3.5") than the popular pocket .380's which seem to be all the rage these days.