.38 load in .357 cases, thoughts?

Now I clean after every range outing so that might be a factor but I have NEVER had an issue with .38 in a .357 causing buildup that eventually causes issue.
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I clean after every outing as well. But the phenomenon is real. It mostly occurs with lead bullets. I believe the "crud" is mostly wax lube. From my experience, it doesn't take a lot of rounds either. Starting with a clean gun (always - I have NEVER taken a dirty gun to the range) I experienced this at the range many times. You have to push the 357 cases into the crud to get them to headspace. Everyone has different experiences. From mine, I get what the OP is saying.

Butzbach, couple questions: 1) What gun is going to shoot these? 2) WHY do you want to download to 38+P?

Edit: forgive my short term memory issues (seriously). You did say this:
My edc is .38 +P and these would be my weekly practice rounds.
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For me, and for our OP's reason, I chose some time back to not bother shooting 38 cased ammo in my 357 guns. If I want to shoot something softer, I shoot my 38 gun (S&W 67, 4" bbl).

That said, I do "de-tune" a fair share of my 357 ammo. I don't know if they reach down to "38+P" behavior; or, how that is actually defined. But I do have some lighter 357 stuff.

One of my favorite is a 158gn plated SWC (Xtreme bullet co) with 7.0 grains of Unique. Yields 994 f/s through a 3" bbl (M686); and 1058 f/s through a 4"bbl (also a M686). I suspect however, this is a tad above 38+P in terms of both pressure and performance. This is a good practice level round for me. Maybe you too.

If you want even less performance, I would move to something even faster than Unique. From my tests, this 7.0gn charge weight was about as low as I can go and still get a clean burn from Unique. But once you start moving to even faster propellants in the cavernous 357 case, you start getting into very low fill rates, resulting in inconsistent burns. It's been my experience that loading 357 mag with heavy bullets and fast powders can be a little nervy. Pressures can go up quickly with small increases of charge weight. Even after 36 years of loading experience, this is territory I prefer not to tread.
 
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Nick_C_S said:
I clean after every outing as well. But the phenomenon is real. It mostly occurs with lead bullets. I believe the "crud" is mostly wax lube. From my experience, it doesn't take a lot of rounds either. Starting with a clean gun (always - I have NEVER taken a dirty gun to the range) I experienced this at the range many times. You have to push the 357 cases into the crud to get them to headspace. Everyone has different experiences. From mine, I get what the OP is saying.

Butzbach, couple questions: 1) What gun is going to shoot these? 2) WHY do you want to download to 38+P?

Edit: forgive my short term memory issues (seriously). You did say this:

For me, and for our OP's reason, I chose some time back to not bother shooting 38 cased ammo in my 357 guns. If I want to shoot something softer, I shoot my 38 gun (S&W 67, 4" bbl).

That said, I do "de-tune" a fair share of my 357 ammo. I don't know if they reach down to "38+P" behavior; or, how that is actually defined. But I do have some lighter 357 stuff.

One of my favorite is a 158gn plated SWC (Xtreme bullet co) with 7.0 grains of Unique. Yields 994 f/s through a 3" bbl (M686); and 1058 f/s through a 4"bbl (also a M686). I suspect however, this is a tad above 38+P in terms of both pressure and performance. This is a good practice level round for me. Maybe you too.

If you want even less performance, I would move to something even faster than Unique. From my tests, this 7.0gn charge weight was about as low as I can go and still get a clean burn from Unique. But once you start moving to even faster propellants in the cavernous 357 case, you start getting into very low fill rates, resulting in inconsistent burns. It's been my experience that loading 357 mag with heavy bullets and fast powders can be a little nervy. Pressures can go up quickly with small increases of charge weight. Even after 36 years of loading experience, this is territory I prefer not to tread.
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Nick, thank you for the time you spent on your detailed and informative post. My edc is a 3” model 65. I have other 4” K frames, a Ruger LCR and a Blackhawk all in .38/357.

Your note about bullet wax being my crud source is correct as I practice with what I carry = 158 gr LHP +P. (Back in the day I shot my long gone Model 29 one handed with a cheroot hanging out of my mouth. But, creeping arthritis in my hands has shattered the youthful delusion of invincibility I’m afraid.)

A droopy 357 load would probably be tolerable in everything except the LRC. (Even +P is unpleasant in it.) I only use Unique so thank you for the specific load advice.


Thanks also for the warning on case volume and pressure. I have no desire to boldly go!


Speaking of case volume miss matches . . . Last week I pulled down some 45/70 reloads my Dad had purchased to shoot in his Trapdoor. 485 gr LRN with gas checks with a nominal 1050 fps mv according to the reloader. They were made specifically as low power Trapdoor loads. I was surprised by the tiny amount of an undisclosed small grain powder that he used. It was headed for the compost pile so I didn’t think to weigh one of the charges. If your high pressure experience translates to other caliber load combinations, these might have been anything but low pressure rounds!

Thanks again for sharing.
 
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Last week I pulled down some 45/70 reloads my Dad had purchased to shoot in his Trapdoor. 485 gr LRN with gas checks with a nominal 1050 fps mv according to the reloader. They were made specifically as low power Trapdoor loads. I was surprised by the tiny amount of an undisclosed small grain powder that he used.
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There has been a good deal of .45-70 loaded with 10-15 grains of Unique in a case that will hold 40 grains of 3031. Kind of touchy, but it would be cheap for a commercial loader.
 
I’ve shot literally over 3000 hytek coated 38s through a 357 gun without cleaning and without buildup of crud rings. That said, I also purchased a SP101 with terrible crud rings. Wouldn’t even chamber a 357 until I scrubbed it with chore boy.
In another instance I shot 100 swaged lead hbwc 38s through a gun and it did build up some light crud rings from that.
I’ve concluded that crud rings only form with swaged lead and hot burning powder. Really cheap LRN might do it. Or a combo of hbwc and titegroup.
But if you shoot clean ammo, it’s a non-issue


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Radny97 said:
I’ve shot literally over 3000 hytek coated 38s through a 357 gun without cleaning and without buildup of crud rings. That said, I also purchased a SP101 with terrible crud rings. Wouldn’t even chamber a 357 until I scrubbed it with chore boy.
In another instance I shot 100 swaged lead hbwc 38s through a gun and it did build up some light crud rings from that.
I’ve concluded that crud rings only form with swaged lead and hot burning powder. Really cheap LRN might do it. Or a combo of hbwc and titegroup.
But if you shoot clean ammo, it’s a non-issue


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Good to know. I don’t know if you consider Remington 158 gr .38 Special +P “really cheap LRN” but that’s what my crud rings came from. YMMV.
 
Easy to eliminate "crud rings" when cleaning.

Run a patch through each chamber with your favorite cleaner.
Let cleaner soak for 5 minutes.
Screw a phosphor bronze brush into a short section of a cleaning rod.
Chuck the cleaning rod in a electric hand drill.
Dip brush in cleaning fluid.
Insert brush in chamber.
Trigger drill and make slow in/out passages in chamber (6 or so).
Repeat on next chamber.
Your crud ring is gone.

Since the brush in the drill is going in the same direction as the reamer which finished the chamber, cleaning is more efficient than a simple in and out action.
 
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I made the move years ago to using only 357 cases in my Python. Gave away all of my massive pile of 38 brass. Then my wife decided that a snub nose 38 was what she wanted for a carry gun. Had to buy new 38 brass.

The crud ring…I get it in the Python. In my newer 686 I also get the crud ring, but 357 rounds still chamber easily, unlike the Python. Maybe the Python has tighter chambers?
 
603Country said:
I made the move years ago to using only 357 cases in my Python. Gave away all of my massive pile of 38 brass. Then my wife decided that a snub nose 38 was what she wanted for a carry gun. Had to buy new 38 brass.

The crud ring…I get it in the Python. In my newer 686 I also get the crud ring, but 357 rounds still chamber easily, unlike the Python. Maybe the Python has tighter chambers?
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I hear you. I'm facing the same fork in the road on the .38 cases. 250 nickel once fired .357s are sitting in my mail box. I do have an SP 101 in .38 but I was planning to trade that on some kind of .357. I don't shoot it but I don't like getting rid of any guns in times like these.
 
My only experience with cylinder crud was with a range gun that had not been properly cleaned. Couldn’t get a 357 round in the cylinder. Checked inside and could clearly see the crud rings.
I don’t often shoot 38s in my GP100, but a thorough cleaning prevents any crud build up.
I have shot light loads using 357 cases and HP38 with 158gr LRNs. Very fun to shoot and my 10 year old grandson can handle it easily.
 
A good way to clean crud rings easily, take a fired nickel case, then bevel the inside of the rim with a good countersink bit until it forms a good cutting edge. This will act as a scraper and get most of the crud out and the rest comes out with a little soaking.
 
jetinteriorguy said:
A good way to clean crud rings easily, take a fired nickel case, then bevel the inside of the rim with a good countersink bit until it forms a good cutting edge. This will act as a scraper and get most of the crud out and the rest comes out with a little soaking.
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I like your thinkin’.
 
This is why we reload !
You can reduce the power level a little and not hurt a thing ...it's not dangerous ...
So load your 357 cases to the power level you desire ... I do it all the time with 41 Magnum and cast bullets , I even have a Wadcutter mould to cast target bullets so I can load paper punching Target ammo in my 41 Magnum ...
You can't buy target 41 magnum ammo ...loading it in the cases I have ...
works just fine !
No reason not to do the same with 357 magnum .

Go for it ... Keep On Keeping On
Gary
 
A good way to clean crud rings easily, take a fired nickel case, then bevel the inside of the rim with a good countersink bit until it forms a good cutting edge.
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Essentially this advice has been in print in reloading books/articles as long as I've been reading them (50 years) and almost certainly dates earlier than that. probably from about 1936 or so...:D

Additionally, what I've usually seen is advice to flare the fired case mouth (so it actually scrapes the chamber walls) and you can use the chamfering tool to put a sharp edge on it.

The case need not be nickel, brass case will do as well.

and do use a .357 case, a .38 case won't work for this...:D
 
357 Light loads work well. Try 5.5gr 231 and 158 LSWC. Try a bit higher charges of 231 with 110 and 125 grain bullets around 1150fps.
 
44 AMP said:
Essentially this advice has been in print in reloading books/articles as long as I've been reading them (50 years) and almost certainly dates earlier than that. probably from about 1936 or so...:D

Additionally, what I've usually seen is advice to flare the fired case mouth (so it actually scrapes the chamber walls) and you can use the chamfering tool to put a sharp edge on it.

The case need not be nickel, brass case will do as well.

and do use a .357 case, a .38 case won't work for this...:D
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Ah yes, I forgot to mention the ever so slight flare as well. I like the 1936 reference.
 
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