.38 load in .357 cases, thoughts?

For the record I wasn’t and I don’t believe Jim was trying to be snarky. I think we were both simply giving you legit observations from us in hopes it may or may not provide a data point or help.

Apologies if you took it as snark…….which I am not above mind you but this wasnt it. :)
 
Actually it was a bit snarky. But an observation nevertheless. Once upon a time off the wall inquiries were usually about risky propositions. "That reloading manual was written by lawyers, what is the REAL load?"

Now there is a lot of timid stuff; like "Is it safe to fire .38 +P in my .357 Magnum."

If I had the components to throw at this matter, I would load some up and see what the difference between Special and Magnum cases amounted to. But I don't.
And I don't need to for my own use because I have not seen fouling that would not clean out readily.
 
"Add a little powder" means to increase your load in small increments until you reach a load that you are comfortable with, meets your needs and is safe. Only you can quantify it. You are working up the load, right?
 
A couple of other points to consider, ...
first is the data listed in most loading manuals is not "every possible load that will work, from lowest on up". It is what the manual producers believe most people are looking for.

Very few people are looking for light loads in magnum calibers, the majority are looking for magnum loads, and that what the bulk of the data is, because of that.

This is especially true in rifle rounds but also applies to handgun rounds as well. You won't find a soft 650-700fps (or often an 800fps) load listed in the Magnum cartridge data. Its not because they don't exist, its because most people aren't interested in them so there's no space (and money) "wasted" printing them in the usual reloading manuals.

Another point to remember is that while guns & ammo follow general trends, there are exceptions. Some gun and ammo combinations are faster than others, some slower. The ammo might be exactly the same and give significant differences in velocity fired from different guns, even with the same barrel lengths.

Usually the difference is small, and not significant (50fps or less) but sometimes things are different enough to produce larger differences in results. I've seen 100fps difference between 3 different 6" pistols shooting the same ammunition. Its not usual but its not so rare as to be a freak occurrence.
 
44 AMP said:
A couple of other points to consider, ...
first is the data listed in most loading manuals is not "every possible load that will work, from lowest on up". It is what the manual producers believe most people are looking for.

Very few people are looking for light loads in magnum calibers, the majority are looking for magnum loads, and that what the bulk of the data is, because of that.

This is especially true in rifle rounds but also applies to handgun rounds as well. You won't find a soft 650-700fps (or often an 800fps) load listed in the Magnum cartridge data. Its not because they don't exist, its because most people aren't interested in them so there's no space (and money) "wasted" printing them in the usual reloading manuals.

Another point to remember is that while guns & ammo follow general trends, there are exceptions. Some gun and ammo combinations are faster than others, some slower. The ammo might be exactly the same and give significant differences in velocity fired from different guns, even with the same barrel lengths.

Usually the difference is small, and not significant (50fps or less) but sometimes things are different enough to produce larger differences in results. I've seen 100fps difference between 3 different 6" pistols shooting the same ammunition. Its not usual but its not so rare as to be a freak occurrence.
Click to expand...
Good points.
 
I too have had issues with dirty throats making it hard to chamber and extract 357 after shooting 38s. The idea of light 38 loads in a 357 casings would solve the problem. You could use starting 357 loads. However this will also significantly up powder consumption based on my limited research

38 with 158g max charges
unique 5.1g
win 231/hp38 4.9g
power pistol 5.5g

357 with 158g starting charges
unique 7.2g
win 231/hp38 6.2g
power pistol 7.3

this corresponds to a loss of the following
unique 400 rounds less per 1lb
win231/hp-38 299 rounds less per 1lb
power pistol 313 round less per 1lb

To me, I would rather take some extra time to do some cleaning that lose that kind of round count.
 
Not exactly Shadow9mm :) . You can load from (Unique) 5.1 to the max of the .357 data in the .357 case. If you were following the conversation above, you'd have understood that. Even go lower as you only quoted the 'max' .38 load.

Ie, For Unique (for data you gave), in the .357 case you can load 5.1, 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, 7.2, up to whatever the max is for the .357 for that bullet (I didn't look it up). You haven't lost anything. Just find the load in there somewhere that is right for you.
 
Last edited:
rclark said:
Not exactly Shadow9mm :) . You can load from (Unique) 5.1 to the max of the .357 data in the .357 case. If you were following the conversation above, you'd have understood that. Even go lower as you only quoted the 'max' .38 load.

Ie, For Unique (for data you gave), in the .357 case you can load 5.1, 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, 7.2, up to whatever the max is for the .357 for that bullet (I didn't look it up). You haven't lost anything. Just find the load in there somewhere that is right for you.
Click to expand...
I have followed the conversation. Did you see the OPs initial question? The op wanted to duplicate 38+P loads in 357 mag brass to prevent crud rings. Using starting 357 mag loads does what the OP asked for. Due to the larger case volume directly using a 38load will result in reduced velocity compared to the original loading due to the increased case capacity. Also the lower case fill, especially if pushing further down, could cause inconsistent velocities and poor accuracy.

In short, IMHO, the OP needs to start with 357 starting loads, they should be right in the ballpark of 38+P, then fine tune a bit.
 
rclark said:
That is the way to go. Reloading the .357 case will allow you to load from 600fps to the max of .357 in the same case. No reason what so ever to use .38s in a .357 revolver if you reload in my opinion. Save the .38s for .38 revolvers... So go to your .38 Special section and start loading! You won't find any 'magnum' powders there of course. For example, looking at Lyman's for a 155gr bullet they have Bullseye listed from 2.8 to 4.4 (+p). Same bullet in the .357 section has Bullseye listed from 4.8 to 7. So now you have a full range of velocities you can achieve from around 3.0 to 7.0. I usually start at the high side of .38 (in this case say 4.0) and see what velocity that achieves and for accuracy of course and then go up/down from there. That's my thoughts.
Click to expand...
No other reason to use 38s in a 357, other than that the brass is more available and cheaper.... its worth it to me to clean the crud rings for the savings.
 
IMHO, the OP needs to start with 357 starting loads,
Click to expand...
That will work too. But from experience, I know he doesn't 'have' to. I tested (.357 case) from 5.0 to 7.0 Unique under 158g SWC :) . 5.0 - 958fps up to 7.0 - 1191fps . You are not going to convince me that 7.2g is a .38 special +P load..... I personally liked the 6.5 - 1152fps load which I don't believe is a +P load either. Also tested w231 from 5.0 to 6.0. Looks like I didn't get around to Power Pistol tests in .357 ... but did in other calibers.

I never have run onto any free .38 Special brass. I get all mine from Starlinebrass. Looking there, .38 Special says no backorder and no price, and .357 is in stock for $95.50 per 500. Not bad at all.
 
Last edited:
A couple of years or so ago, I switched over to all 357 cases including a 38 special power level target round. I used all of my mixed head stamp nickel plated brass for these low power loads. Seems I had to run about 0.3 gr more Promo compared to what I had been using in the 38s.

The lack of worry about crud ring was one item, the other was I liked the idea of less bullet jump when leaving the case.

Also, if my load happen to run a slightly higher pressure than SAAMI specs for 38 Sp, I do not need to worry about my ammo ending up in some weak 38 SP gun.

I am happy with my choice to quit using 38 Sp cases in 357 guns.
 
rclark said:
That will work too. But from experience, I know he doesn't 'have' to. I tested (.357 case) from 5.0 to 7.0 Unique under 158g SWC :) . 5.0 - 958fps up to 7.0 - 1191fps . You are not going to convince me that 7.2g is a .38 special +P load..... I personally liked the 6.5 - 1152fps load which I don't believe is a +P load either. Also tested w231 from 5.0 to 6.0. Looks like I didn't get around to Power Pistol tests in .357 ... but did in other calibers.

I never have run onto any free .38 Special brass. I get all mine from Starlinebrass. Looking there, .38 Special says no backorder and no price, and .357 is in stock for $95.50 per 500. Not bad at all.
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing your load data.
 
P Flados said:
A couple of years or so ago, I switched over to all 357 cases including a 38 special power level target round. I used all of my mixed head stamp nickel plated brass for these low power loads. Seems I had to run about 0.3 gr more Promo compared to what I had been using in the 38s.

The lack of worry about crud ring was one item, the other was I liked the idea of less bullet jump when leaving the case.

Also, if my load happen to run a slightly higher pressure than SAAMI specs for 38 Sp, I do not need to worry about my ammo ending up in some weak 38 SP gun.

I am happy with my choice to quit using 38 Sp cases in 357 guns.
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing your experience.
 
Shadow9mm said:
I have followed the conversation. Did you see the OPs initial question? The op wanted to duplicate 38+P loads in 357 mag brass to prevent crud rings. Using starting 357 mag loads does what the OP asked for. Due to the larger case volume directly using a 38load will result in reduced velocity compared to the original loading due to the increased case capacity. Also the lower case fill, especially if pushing further down, could cause inconsistent velocities and poor accuracy.

In short, IMHO, the OP needs to start with 357 starting loads, they should be right in the ballpark of 38+P, then fine tune a bit.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your analysis and for refocusing the thread.
 
Shadow9mm said:
I too have had issues with dirty throats making it hard to chamber and extract 357 after shooting 38s. The idea of light 38 loads in a 357 casings would solve the problem. You could use starting 357 loads. However this will also significantly up powder consumption based on my limited research

38 with 158g max charges
unique 5.1g
win 231/hp38 4.9g
power pistol 5.5g

357 with 158g starting charges
unique 7.2g
win 231/hp38 6.2g
power pistol 7.3

this corresponds to a loss of the following
unique 400 rounds less per 1lb
win231/hp-38 299 rounds less per 1lb
power pistol 313 round less per 1lb

To me, I would rather take some extra time to do some cleaning that lose that kind of round count.
Click to expand...
Thanks for taking the time to do this round count analysis. In this period of limited supplies it is certainly a consideration.
 
mid -range

For quite long time, I've loaded 6.0 gr of Unique under anybody's commercial 158 gr LSwC. That load yields 1000 fps from my 4-5/8" B-hawk, a good midrange load and what serves as my GP load for all my .357 guns. Even shoot pretty well from micro-groove Marlin carbine.
 
I've loaded 6.0 gr of Unique under anybody's commercial 158 gr LSwC.
Click to expand...
I went back and forth with 6.0 and 6.5... Last loads were 6.5. That said, 6.0-6.5 under any brand 158g SWC are good midrange loads. The velocities I mentioned above were out of a 6 1/2" barrel BH which I use as my test gun. Moved on to Green Dot for awhile, but now I've started using True Blue as my .357 goto powder. Leaving the Green Dot for my .45 Colt pet smokeless load. Unique is still used for my .44 Specials and .44 Magnums. So it goes.
 
rclark said:
That will work too. But from experience, I know he doesn't 'have' to. I tested (.357 case) from 5.0 to 7.0 Unique under 158g SWC :) . 5.0 - 958fps up to 7.0 - 1191fps . You are not going to convince me that 7.2g is a .38 special +P load..... I personally liked the 6.5 - 1152fps load which I don't believe is a +P load either. Also tested w231 from 5.0 to 6.0. Looks like I didn't get around to Power Pistol tests in .357 ... but did in other calibers.

I never have run onto any free .38 Special brass. I get all mine from Starlinebrass. Looking there, .38 Special says no backorder and no price, and .357 is in stock for $95.50 per 500. Not bad at all.
Click to expand...
I have had good luck with power pistol in 38 with 158s, 5.0g at 925fps out of my 6in 357. I have also had great luck with light 120g bullets in 357 at 10.5g getting 1525fps.

As far as brass I buy once fired from no bull tactical. I can get 1000 38spl for around 65, and 250 357 for 45 when In stock
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top