.358 Winchester, Why Not?
- Thread starter Old Bill Dibble
- Start date
Gunplummer
New member
It does not matter what you want it to do, popularity rarely relies on performance. Sales pitch is everything. That is "Why not....".
stagpanther
New member
Very easy conversion--very easy neck-up from 308 cases--cycles very well in an AR 10 platform.
Nooooo, don't do it!!
Talk to Kurt at KAK--he makes the AR 358 barrels from green mountain blanks. Fit and finish is superb for a fairly low-priced barrel. You might need to freeze the barrel and heat the upper extension collar to get her in--but well worth the extra work for a flawless fit. Put that Kahntrol brake on and you'll be laughing to yourself as you take repeated shots and the felt recoil is the same as a 308 and the rifle comes straight back a bit.
Stag, when you make up a 358 on an AR10 size rifle do you still use standard 308 mags?
The front rib inside the mags was supposed to brace the shoulder of the shells and in theory. It would ride at the juncture of the neck and shoulder.
Because the neck is wider I am wondering if the rounds clear the rib and stack in the magazine correctly.
Can you enlighten me?
Are there some mags that should be avoided and others that work OK?
The front rib inside the mags was supposed to brace the shoulder of the shells and in theory. It would ride at the juncture of the neck and shoulder.
Because the neck is wider I am wondering if the rounds clear the rib and stack in the magazine correctly.
Can you enlighten me?
Are there some mags that should be avoided and others that work OK?
stagpanther
New member
Good question--I haven't noticed any issues with DPMS, PMag or Brownells 308 mags--IMO, oddly enough, the fatter neck and bullets seems to aid in getting from mag into chamber with less drag/angle issues while passing along ramp/extension than a smaller calber. I base this opinion on almost complete lack of case deformation upon ejection. No FTF's as of yet. Maybe I'm just lucky with this one (my other AR builds almost always require some kind of "tweaking").
Check that first comment--the DPMS-style mags with the front "nib lip" looks like it might interfere with feeding should it somehow catch on the shoulder (I usually use P-Mags or Brownells). I haven't experienced that yet--but it might be a possibility. sorry bout that.
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Thanks Stag
In my experience with "Stoner system" AR 10 size rifles, the larger the bore the easier it is to get them to function, but the potential with magazine problems has held be back from doing very many. I have worked on quit a number of ARs in 243, 260 7-08 and 308. I also have a bit of experience with the 338 Fed, but not much so far. By far, the most problematic have been the 243s and the 260 can also fight their own function quite a lot.
In fact, I have had more "problem child" 308 come to my shot than any other caliber, but I am sure that is because 9 out of 10 AR10 size rifles are 308s
I have build several 358s in the past on bolt actions and I respect the cartridge very much, but your comments may push me over the edge to make an AR style and play with it. I bet it would be a great weapon for elk in the thick stuff, and may feel good in the hands when we see so many track on the ground from Grizzlies. (as we do in western Wyoming so very often)
In my experience with "Stoner system" AR 10 size rifles, the larger the bore the easier it is to get them to function, but the potential with magazine problems has held be back from doing very many. I have worked on quit a number of ARs in 243, 260 7-08 and 308. I also have a bit of experience with the 338 Fed, but not much so far. By far, the most problematic have been the 243s and the 260 can also fight their own function quite a lot.
In fact, I have had more "problem child" 308 come to my shot than any other caliber, but I am sure that is because 9 out of 10 AR10 size rifles are 308s
I have build several 358s in the past on bolt actions and I respect the cartridge very much, but your comments may push me over the edge to make an AR style and play with it. I bet it would be a great weapon for elk in the thick stuff, and may feel good in the hands when we see so many track on the ground from Grizzlies. (as we do in western Wyoming so very often)
bamaranger
New member
what?
What doomed the .358 was it was introduced at a time when interest in medium bore cartridges, and lever rifles/pumps was falling. The .358 came along at about the same time that "magnums" were all the rage. It had to compete with the .264, the 7mm (mag) the .300 mag in all its configurations, etc, as well as the flatter shooting typical .270's, and various .30's. The shift had begun to bolt rifles with scopes and high velocity, and nobody was too much interested in a .35 "brush buster" , "medium" range cartridge, in a rifle like grampa used to use. (The Win 88, the Savage 99, BLR). The same fate has fallen on the .338 Federal as well.
What doomed the .358 was it was introduced at a time when interest in medium bore cartridges, and lever rifles/pumps was falling. The .358 came along at about the same time that "magnums" were all the rage. It had to compete with the .264, the 7mm (mag) the .300 mag in all its configurations, etc, as well as the flatter shooting typical .270's, and various .30's. The shift had begun to bolt rifles with scopes and high velocity, and nobody was too much interested in a .35 "brush buster" , "medium" range cartridge, in a rifle like grampa used to use. (The Win 88, the Savage 99, BLR). The same fate has fallen on the .338 Federal as well.
stagpanther
New member
Yup--my experience as well (though I haven't worked on as many xx10 platforms as you). Depending on how the cartridge stacks in the mag and how it is "presented" by the bolt I think determines how well it reliably feeds. When you do a "slow feed" of a cartridge you can see how the cartridge rides the ramp and past the extension lugs. The 6.5 Creedmoor I recently built was especially demanding--what I found was sharp ogive/high BC bullets that are seated long near the OAL limits of the mag sometimes have issues of not being lifted enough by the shoulder to make their way through the lugs without getting a bit damaged--even sometimes jamming into the chamber face without going into the chamber itself. I eventually noticed even Hornady's very good factory GMX ammo is seated significantly shorter than the max AR10 OAL capacity for the cartridge--and when I seated bullets shorter the problems went away (and a slight change in the magazine lip angles--Brownell's lip tool and mags are excellent for working with these kinds of issues)
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stagpanther
New member
Even at 300 yds that 358 win can be moving along at 1800+fps and over 1700 ftlbs of energy--nothing to sneeze at.
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
Sure why not.
358 is just a 308 brass necked up to 35 caliber that garners more felt recoil and little else over its 30-cal parent. Some say the 358 caliber was a really good hunting caliber for the woods. But what isn't. There all good for hunting in the woods.
deadcoyote
New member
I like the .358 Winchester. I live in a very wooded short range hunting area. The only reason I am fond of this cartridge is it seems like a lot of old sporter military conversions kicking around up here in that caliber for cheap. I wanted one as a kid, ended up going .35 remington instead. I wouldn't hesitate to use one still, just be ready to reload.
Jack O'Conner
New member
Like many other middle bore hunting rifles, North American hunters yawned and bought 30 calibers instead. Unfair but true. Some have stated that the .358 is a fine brush gun but it's ballistics and trajectory prove otherwise. The .358 has what it takes to deliver kill shots at about 300 yards or so. This is a usable range for the majority of our hunting situations.
The only middle bores I own are a 35 Remington and a 35 Whelen. Both are keepers!
Jack
The only middle bores I own are a 35 Remington and a 35 Whelen. Both are keepers!
Jack
I am in the hunt for a new hunting rifle and I thought I had decided on the .35 Whelen in a bolt gun, but a BLR would be a handy quick action and I think the .358 Win. would meet my needs too, decisions, decisions!
Then the other conundrum is which fixed power scope to put on, 2.5x or 4x? Life is so hard!
Then the other conundrum is which fixed power scope to put on, 2.5x or 4x? Life is so hard!
stagpanther
New member
I just tested some 358 win handloads you can see at https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6354330#post6354330 out of my AR build--it is a very impressive cartridge--much more than a 308 IMO even though that's the parent case (and very easy to neck up from) it uses. I was having trouble keeping my bipod steady on the table--but it's easy to see the inherent accuracy and power potential
I just don't think that anyone likes 35 caliber. A .358 caliber loaded down to match the .220 .308 will not be as good a load as a 30-06 in any particular way. Less penetration, rounder trajectory, etc.Both BC and SD are inferior.
Its just that .358 calibers are less than 44 calibers, and less than magnum calibers, and offer little real advantage over .30 calibers (in the mind of the average shooter.) You have the .358, .35 whelen, and even .35 remington, and I don't believe that any of them are within the top fifty most popular cartridges.
Its just that .358 calibers are less than 44 calibers, and less than magnum calibers, and offer little real advantage over .30 calibers (in the mind of the average shooter.) You have the .358, .35 whelen, and even .35 remington, and I don't believe that any of them are within the top fifty most popular cartridges.
stagpanther
New member
You're comparing a typically short-action cartridge to a typically long action one.
You mention the 44 (I assume you mean 44 mag) which I have used as a dense woods hunter. The 358 win, IMO--delivers similar devasting power to a hot 44 mag load--to twice the effective distance--that's how I would sum it up.
Oh, come on. then compare the 30-06 to the .35 whelen, and consider the fact that the whelen isn't a commonly used gun either.
Would I really compare the .358 winchester to the .44 magnum? No, I was referring to the .444 marlin or 45-7 and both of them sell, where the .358 is not.
Now, do any of the people in america pass over the 7mm magnum to buy the .358 winchester? No, I guess not, because any of the magnum rounds, 7mm over outsell the .358 because most people prefer flat shooting fast rounds, and they equate velocity with performance. We could throw in the .350 rem magnum and .358 norma magnum.
The bottom line is that only a tiny number of people want a short action .358 caliber rifle, and even still, very few people want a long action .358, either. People prefer to stay with the more traditional rounds and don't seem to believe that the .358 is a useful bore size.
This isn't a matter of opinion, the people speak with their purchases, and probably thousands of people choose traditional calibers for every rifle that's loaded for a .358 caliber.
It's a shame. The .358 rounds are worthwhile.
Would I really compare the .358 winchester to the .44 magnum? No, I was referring to the .444 marlin or 45-7 and both of them sell, where the .358 is not.
Now, do any of the people in america pass over the 7mm magnum to buy the .358 winchester? No, I guess not, because any of the magnum rounds, 7mm over outsell the .358 because most people prefer flat shooting fast rounds, and they equate velocity with performance. We could throw in the .350 rem magnum and .358 norma magnum.
The bottom line is that only a tiny number of people want a short action .358 caliber rifle, and even still, very few people want a long action .358, either. People prefer to stay with the more traditional rounds and don't seem to believe that the .358 is a useful bore size.
This isn't a matter of opinion, the people speak with their purchases, and probably thousands of people choose traditional calibers for every rifle that's loaded for a .358 caliber.
It's a shame. The .358 rounds are worthwhile.
