.358 Winchester, Why Not?

I believe the reason that the big bores are losing popularity is because of the tremendous development in bullet construction. A .30 will do more today than a .35 would do 40 years ago. (As far as stopping power and penetration)

I can not think of anything I would shoot with a .358 Win. that I would not shoot with a .308 Win. For the record, if it is something that could eat me that I would be shooting, I would be using a much bigger case than the .308 Win. anyway.
 
I have a Model 94 "Big Bore" chambered in .356 Winchester (not too far shy of the .358 in terms of performance). It wears an old Weaver 1.5-4.5x scope, and it's a great rifle! The 220-grain Speer flatnose works quite well for this round.
 
I can not think of anything I would shoot with a .358 Win. that I would not shoot with a .308 Win. For the record, if it is something that could eat me that I would be shooting, I would be using a much bigger case than the .308 Win. anyway.
Wise.

I do agree that bullet technology has helped the smaller calibers. There's also the fact that no matter how much people talk about elk and even larger game, most of these rifles get used to shoot mule deer, white tails, bears and hogs. It's all well and good to talk about moose, but do you have a way to get a moose tag other than spending a fortune or winning an unlikely lottery? I don't.
 
If you were looking for a pistol analog for .358 win, it would be more like .44 Russian - medium diameter and a hair underpowered :D
 
I believe the reason that the big bores are losing popularity is because of the tremendous development in bullet construction. A .30 will do more today than a .35 would do 40 years ago. (As far as stopping power and penetration)

As far as stopping power and penetration goes....no, not really. To illustrate why advances in bullet technology aren't much of a factor consider Bell. The 173gr 7mm FMJ round nose bullet that Bell used to take elephant with brain shots has better penetration than any expanding 30 caliber bullet today. Either you get a central nervous system hit and drop the animal, or you don't and they have to bleed out.

The 358 Norma was introduced in 1959, shortly after the 358 Win (and long after the 35 Whelen had been accepted as a swell hunting round), and the advantage of a bigger bore has always been the same, you get a more massive bullet which maintains more momentum upon contact with flesh. A high tech solid copper bullet in a 30 caliber will stay together great, but it won't produce any different effects than a Nosler Partition (introduced way more than 40 years ago) in terms of penetration or "stopping power"

So small bore rounds (8mm and under) are just not getting better, unless you count the high speed Magnums which can really take advantage of X bullets and Partitions. Of course those generally recoil harder than the 358 Win, so it's a bit of a wash (but you can't deny the popularity of the 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag). The word "magnum" definitely does sell firearms.

I can not think of anything I would shoot with a .358 Win. that I would not shoot with a .308 Win. For the record, if it is something that could eat me that I would be shooting, I would be using a much bigger case than the .308 Win. anyway.

The 358 Win falls into the same "medium bore" category as the 35 Whelen and 9.3x62, it's designed to take game cleanly with a minimum of fuss in areas where you might need to defend yourself from hostile man or beast. You don't need a 375 H&H to hunt Alaska blacktail deer, a 308 Win would do very nicely, but a 358 Win loaded with 225 to 250gr bullets would be a better choice for a "halitosis" encounter with a bear who decided he wanted your blacktail more than you did. Not that a 180gr bullet from a 308 wouldn't also save your life, just that anything you can do to stack the odds in your favor is probably a good thing.

But, if all you have is a 308, then all you have is a 308 and there is no point missing a hunt because a 308 isn't the best choice for defending yourself in bear country it is a dang sight better than harsh language and a sharp stick. Small bores can do it, as Bell and his 7mm took many elephants. But even Bell went to a 318 Westley Richards and remarked that many of his "inexplicable misses" went away. Sometimes bigger is better, but how much better is really hard to quantify.

Jimro
 
Stagpanther. You have definite faulty logic. The .308 Win. and the .358 Win. use the same case. Last time I checked, the 9mm luger and the .44 mag do not use the same case. The 44 mag burns much more powder than the 9mm and has much greater energy. You are comparing apples and pumpkins.
The comparison you made would be like comparing the .308 Win. to the .358 STA.
 
Jimro, to take your comparison to the extreme, you could use monolithic solids. The comparison you are attempting to make is using under powered cartridges to kill dangerous game. TMJ and monolithic solids are illegal to use in hunting most game outside Africa. I have extensively used Nosler Partition, Swift A frame, and Barnes X. The first two do not even compare to the X in the penetration department. When they shed weight, they shed energy.
 
Stagpanther. You have definite faulty logic. The .308 Win. and the .358 Win. use the same case. Last time I checked, the 9mm luger and the .44 mag do not use the same case. The 44 mag burns much more powder than the 9mm and has much greater energy. You are comparing apples and pumpkins.
The comparison you made would be like comparing the .308 Win. to the .358 STA.
Faulty--maybe--exaggerated to make a point--definitely. Big holes--even at moderate velocities--do count. I shoot the 358 win and it is a darn nice cartridge that is unique enough most people don't see a need for it. That's fine, most of us that use it don't really care why others don't like it or see a use for it--though I suspect 99 times out of a hundred the naysayers have little to no experience with it.
 
When I was a kid, I killed whitetail deer with a 22 Hornet because it was what I had. They were dead...all of them.

When I grew up, I got a lot of guns.

I killed a whitetail with the 460. It died just like it had been shot with the 22 Hornet.

My hunting buddy killed a Nilgai with a 222 Rem. One shot behind the ear.

All guns will kill in the proper hands, meaning someone that can hit where they are aiming.

I love 35 caliber. I have two. Heck, I love all calibers, but am not particularly fond of calibers with a belt on the lower part of the case, but I have some.

I have seen Elk act as though they were not dead with a heart shot using the 338 Win Mag. Elk are hard to kill as they are very tenacious.

All it boils down to is that we (each one of us) can choose the calibers we hunt with, and all of them are great choices as long as we can hit where we aim.
 
Stagpanther, I had a .358 Winchester. I now have two .350 Rem Mags and a .35 Whelen. I fully understand what the cartridge can do. I fully understand that in times past it had many more advantages than it has today.
When a thread asks a question, don't get offended when people give their answers. The .358 Win. is not popular, there are reasons for it not being popular.
 
Stagpanther, I had a .358 Winchester. I now have two .350 Rem Mags and a .35 Whelen. I fully understand what the cartridge can do. I fully understand that in times past it had many more advantages than it has today.
When a thread asks a question, don't get offended when people give their answers. The .358 Win. is not popular, there are reasons for it not being popular.
I'm not offended at all--I've seen too many of these glamour contests on firearms forums to get caught up in them seriously. I give my opinion(s) based on my experience--limited in many cases--and then move along. lol
 
Jimro, to take your comparison to the extreme, you could use monolithic solids. The comparison you are attempting to make is using under powered cartridges to kill dangerous game. TMJ and monolithic solids are illegal to use in hunting most game outside Africa. I have extensively used Nosler Partition, Swift A frame, and Barnes X. The first two do not even compare to the X in the penetration department. When they shed weight, they shed energy.

Well, ask yourself this, did the Barnes X bullet kill them any deader?

And the point I was trying to make is that small bore cartridges are lethal, but there are better choices than small bore cartridges for hunting.

On a more serious note, where you using the same rifle to test all three bullets? How did you measure penetration? Did you ever encounter a situation where a Partition or A Frame failed to reach the vitals?

Jimro
 
Killing "deader" is impossible to discuss. If it kills it, it kills it. How quickly it kills and how forgiving on shot placement is the meaningful discussion. I could shoot a bear in the but with an arrow dipped in a septic tank and kill it, eventually. :rolleyes:
 
Killing "deader" is impossible to discuss. If it kills it, it kills it. How quickly it kills and how forgiving on shot placement is the meaningful discussion. I could shoot a bear in the but with an arrow dipped in a septic tank and kill it, eventually.

Fallacy of false analogy :)

But yes, there are lots of ways to kill. You could trap, starve, strangle, gas, nuke, incinerate with a flamethrower, spear, explode, or mechanically dismember the bear too, none of which have much to do with whether or not a small bore rifle is a good choice for bear. Or you could just shoot the bear with a normal broad head in the boiler maker which would be ethically acceptable for hunting.

Lethality comes in three parts, first is accuracy, the second is penetration, the third is wound channel size. Whether or not a Barnes X bullet is a better penetrator than a Partition is irrelevant once enough penetration has been reached to do the job, and at that point the permanent wound channel serves only to help speed the process of "air in, blood out" along. Once you've achieved adequate penetration in a vital area, it's only a matter of time.

It isn't that premium bullets breathed new life into small bore rifles, the 30-30 was still going very strong even before the new polymer tipped bullets designed for it came out, it is that small bores have pretty much always been part of the hunting scene, from 7x57s to 303 Savage to the 30-06. Only the the 30-06 and 308 gained widespread acceptance for obvious reasons, although the 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag aren't far behind for also obvious reasons while the equally awesome 264 Win Mag and 300 Newton languish in obscurity. The only thing premium bullets did was allow magnums to have fewer failures on game because tougher bullets were needed to handle the impact velocity (something not needed with a 308 Win or 358 Win).

Jimro
 
The .338 Federal doesn't do what I want it to, also needs a longer barrel.

Old Bill,you have assessed your needs and wants,and chosen a cartridge that you believe meets them.

What that says ? You really don't need advice from the masses who overlooked the 358.

True but I was hoping a different set of eyes would point to some kind of problem that would say; "This is a terrible idea; you'll shoot your eye out". That would save me a bunch of money. Pity.

I think I will take one of my AR-10's and have it done up. Might even start another thread about it.
 
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