.358 Winchester, Why Not?

As I see it, the 358 win will not do anything the 308 cannot handle.
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Quite true, but not very relevant as all the medium bore cartridges hunt the same class of animal quite well. The ancient 9x57 was well regarded as a hunting round, now almost forgotten after the introduction of the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H.

Being a good hunting round doesn't guarantee market success, but market success doesn't mean something is a good hunting round (the 223 Rem for example, excellent cartridge for what it is but not something I'd choose to carry for elk).

Jimro
 
Quite true, but not very relevant as all the medium bore cartridges hunt the same class of animal quite well. The ancient 9x57 was well regarded as a hunting round, now almost forgotten after the introduction of the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H.

Being a good hunting round doesn't guarantee market success, but market success doesn't mean something is a good hunting round (the 223 Rem for example, excellent cartridge for what it is but not something I'd choose to carry for elk).

Jimro
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How true--words of wisdom : )
 
I use Speer 220g flat points over Win 748 and it is the hammer of Thor.
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This is what I have seen, as well. Not just the .358, but all the .35 rifle rounds. You won't see it in the paper ballistics. You only see it when game are shot. .35Rem out smacks .30-30 on deer, .358, .35Whelen and .350 Rem Mag hit even harder.

It may be simply the frontal area of the bullet, it may be something else one can't easily quantify, but the observed results are the observed results. .35s and up hit like the Hammer of Thor.

Even though the energy might be the same as a .30 round, the observed effect looks like the .35s hit harder.

deer don't read ballistics charts...:D

The biggest drawback to the .358 in semi auto rifles, particularly, is that the case doesn't have much of shoulder to headspace on. This can make for a more "picky" rifle when it comes to ammo fit, and accuracy.
 
The biggest drawback to the .358 in semi auto rifles, particularly, is that the case doesn't have much of shoulder to headspace on. This can make for a more "picky" rifle when it comes to ammo fit, and accuracy.
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The 358 has a practically massive shoulder compared to the standard version of the 35 Whelen. :D

Of course when COL Whelen was necking up the 30-06 he did so in the 1903 Springfield action with controlled round feed. The rim slipped under the extractor claw during feeding, so even with excess headspace the rim would grip the round tight enough against the bolt face for the firing pin to strike hard and light off the round.

I once proved that you could have such excess headspace in a 30-06 that the brass would stretch and crack consistently, but being in a Mauser 98 CRF action, they would still set off reliably with almost two tenths of an inch of excess headspace. Funny story now, but boy was I embarrassed at the time.

Jimro
 
The wife was gifted a .35 Remington last year and she has been itching to try it out this fall on the deer. I am willing to bet it does hit a lot harder than the .30-30. It does have a bit more recoil than the .30-30 but if you only need one shot and the animal is bang-flop who cares?

As I see it, the 358 win will not do anything the 308 cannot handle.
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Other than big bears sure. Big bear hunting is pretty uncommon though.

I am thinking shooting suppressed subsonics. A bigger heavier bullet without getting clown shoes heavy (.458 comes to my mind) that will outperform .300BO and can also function as a good hunting cartridge instead of a marginal one. A much better array of defensive bullets available as well.

An adjustable gas block would be a must.


The biggest drawback to the .358 in semi auto rifles, particularly, is that the case doesn't have much of shoulder to headspace on. This can make for a more "picky" rifle when it comes to ammo fit, and accuracy.
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I can see this being a problem, not insurmountable but still an issue.

Most people get multiple guns to handle different problems sets. It would be nice to have one gun that can handle multiple problem sets with a few adjustments and some changes in ammo.

You don't see any real advantage on big game animals with any chambering between 30 caliber and 375 caliber. I've seen numerous tests showing comparable 30's out performing 33's and 35's when heavier bullets were used in the 30 calibers.
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I'd be interested in seeing some of those if available.
 
Even though the energy might be the same as a .30 round, the observed effect looks like the .35s hit harder.

deer don't read ballistics charts...

The biggest drawback to the .358 in semi auto rifles, particularly, is that the case doesn't have much of shoulder to headspace on. This can make for a more "picky" rifle when it comes to ammo fit, and accuracy.
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
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I'm getting a chuckle out of many of these comments--my experience has been quite the opposite of most of them.

Oh Where to begin...;)
My build has an affinity for 225 gr gamekings. Get that up around 2500 fps--and comparing a 308 to it is like comparing a hand grenade to an atomic bomb lol. While the shoulder may seem small--it's there and more than enough--it also has a comparatively long neck leaving lots of space for the good stuff.

My AR build shot perfectly from the very first shot to the most recent--never once have I had a problem with cycling from mag to chamber to extraction. This cartridge works VERY well in an AR 10 action--it may be counter-intuitive--but it works very well--like a 300 BO--in it's "swim upstream" from magazine to the chamber sliding easily from the feed ramps into the chamber. My ejected brass looks almost identical to virgin brass--there is virtually a complete lack of any scratches from abrading ramps, lugs etc.

My advice is to take a very close look at the real ballistics of the cartridge--I think you'll be in for a surprise. : )

200 gr pro-hunters are quite accurate--I've shot them MOA at 100
 
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That is also kind of what I was thinking but there isn't a whole lot of research out there on the numbers. With .308 being the donor case you have lots of potential for free brass.
 
That is also kind of what I was thinking but there isn't a whole lot of research out there on the numbers. With .308 being the donor case you have lots of potential for free brass.
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Yup--the neck-up reform is fairly easy and straight-forward. The only drawback is checking your headstamp--I still get confused occasionally when separating reformed cases that say 308 on them:rolleyes:
 
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I've never fired a .358 but have owned its big brother, the 35 Whelen for some time. The barrel was Magna-Ported to eliminate muzzle jump with resulting recoil same as a 30-06. My 35 Whelen started out as a used Winchester model 670 in 30-06 that I had reamed and re-chambered. Twist rate is 1:14 which stabilizes heavy bullets quite well.

It's a myth that the 358 is a brush gun. The trajectory is quite favorable for shots out to 300 yards or so. Just about any .308 rifle can be reamed and re-chambered to .358 for reasonable cost.

Jack
 
It's a myth that the 358 is a brush gun. The trajectory is quite favorable for shots out to 300 yards or so. Just about any .308 rifle can be reamed and re-chambered to .358 for reasonable cost.
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300....and then some IMHO. ;)

 
For hunting very few bullets in that caliber are going to perform well below 1800 ft/s. So 300y is in fact about the limit give or take a bit depending on atmospheric conditions.

A strong argument for the .35 Whelen is that it covers those shots between 300-400y that are potentially ethical in the abstract, but you would be wise to pass on with a .358win due to bullet performance.
 
So it appears that Trident Armory made a ".358 Trident Magnum" round a couple of years ago claiming .35 Whelen performance out of an AR-15. Performance was actually about the same as .358 Win. Donor case was the
.284 Win.

I am not sure how comfortable it would be to shoot .358 Win power rounds out of rifle 3 pounds lighter would be. Nor how well the smaller lower and parts would hold up to the punishment. Come to think of it the brass likely would not like it either.

Seems it died on the vine and disappeared the same year so I am guessing one or more of those concerns was correct.

.35 Whelen has it all over .358 Win in the power and range department but it does not fit in an AR style rifle. The recoil, price and everything else also jump a notch as well.
 
QUOTE: "...It's a myth that the 358 is a brush gun..."

What do you mean, myth? Savage described my Model 99, chambered in .358 Winchester as being their "Brush Rifle". Was Savage lying? :eek: :)
 
stagpanther, I trust you realize that my last post was intended to be factious? Good read on the 24hourcampfire thread.
 
I have made a few 358s on KAR Mausers in the past and I have never heard any complaints form any of the owners.

I don't own one myself because I have rifles that cover that ground, but I would be quite happy with one I am sure. My rifles that I own in the 32 to 37 cal ranges are the 8mm Mauser, a 9.3X74R and a 375H&H, and I have also owned and used two 338-06s and a 338 mag and a 9X65 Mannlicher in the past. So as I said, I have no mission for a 358 Winchester that I don't already have covered with my other rifles.

BUT...when I made the rifles for customers I did do quite a lot of shooting with them before I had them finished, and I was impressed with what the 358 will do out to about 350 yards. They were all quite accurate and the bullets hit things hard. If I owned one and shot it a lot I am sure I could learn hold-overs out to a lot farther.

All my customers report very good results on game from deer to elk, with at least one big black bear killed that I know of too.

No complaints at all and many praises.

Nothing at all wrong with a 358 in my opinion. Not all that popular, but it probably should be.
 
Old Bill,the reason the .358 is a faded round is not based on its merits.
The general public is not impressed by 4 or 6 cylinders.They want 8.
Even if they never tow more than a 14 ft aluminum boat or trash trailer.

Old Bill,you have assessed your needs and wants,and chosen a cartridge that you believe meets them.

What that says ? You really don't need advice from the masses who overlooked the 358.

A friend built one on a Mexican 98 Mauser.Thats a small ring short action,but 98 pattern.It has a 7x57 mag box length.
That means he does not have to deep seat bullets for a 2.8 mag.He can stop when the bullet reaches the bottom of the neck.More powder room!

Its about a 20 in bbl,a Garret Accra-Lite full mannlicher type stock,with a fixed 3x or so scope.

Its a lot of fun to shoot,a great little thumper,and an excellent 250 yd or so hunting rifle.

Not everyone chooses,or has opportunity,for longer shots..

Just do it your way!!If you are building it on an AR,its two pins and another top end. Don't forget DPMS offeres .338 Federal top ends.
 
Jack of all Trades - Master of None

People today are willing to own several firearms suited to very particular tasks. Why shoot varmints with a .270 (or such) when you can do it with a .204? Why shoot Elk with a .270 when you can do it with a .338?

I used to keep .375 Holland Holland Magnums around because I liked them for no particular reason. I had people explain to me that they really weren't suited for "really big" game. I used to hunt Whitetail with them. I used one for a boar hunt on a fenced reserve. My opinion was there was nothing on this earth one could not hunt with a .375 (though keeping a .22 Hornet and a shotgun around would make good sense).

I feel the .358 kind of falls in the same category. For an all around gun for North America - its a fine rifle.
 
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