.357sig

It doesn't work that way. You made a claim. I asked you to support it. Now you say you won't. It's because you can't- I have never seen a verified, actual account of an overpenetration with the .357 Sig round. I always ask that question when people bring it up, and no one can ever support the claim.
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I don't need articles on the internet to support physics. An object at a higher velocity will penetrate further than a similar object at a lower velocity.

From what I understand the FBI did not properly take into account the women agent factor. That does not mean the entire thing was a "flop."
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Yes it does.. If they were such "experts", they would have taken that into account.

Some people hold far too much faith in our Government and Government Agencies. Just because the Federal Air Marshals picked the .357sig does not make it a good choice or even the best choice for it's intended use.

Think what you want, but I think the .357sig for use on an airplane by Air Marshals is a foolish choice.
 
If you want to scour the internet for cases go for it, because I certainly wont. I don't need to do so to know that the .357sig, which was made to mimic the .357 magnum, is prone to overpenetration compared to say a 9mm or .45acp. Higher pressure rounds, that reach higher velocities, penetrate deeper and further than a lower pressure round at lower velocities.
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No, with the 125gr JHP load the .357 Magnum was NOT known for overpenitration. That load was known for staying inside the attacker AND dropping them with just one shot.

Heavier 158 gr loads and soft point 125s were known to overpenitrate.

Hence the .357 Sig uses 125gr JHP so it would do the same thing as the 125gr Magnum load.

And that ability to stop inside an opponent and still deliver very good stopping power was why the Air Marshals use the .357 Sig.

Massad Ayoob himself as wrote that the Texas DPS are quite happy with the performance of the .357 Sig cartridge in actual shootings.

http://books.google.com/books?id=AD...age&q=texas DPS .357 sig satisfaction&f=false

Deaf
 
I don't need articles on the internet to support physics. An object at a higher velocity will penetrate further than a similar object at a lower velocity.
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I'm not talking about this point. I'm addressing your claim that the .357 Sig round is a liability due to likelihood of overpenetration.

If you are going to make a claim, you should be able or willing to back it up. If you can't or won't, your claim is worthless.

Just because the Federal Air Marshals picked the .357sig does not make it a good choice or even the best choice for it's intended use.

Think what you want, but I think the .357sig for use on an airplane by Air Marshals is a foolish choice.
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You are entitled to your opinion. If you want it to actually have any merit, back it up with your qualifications to make such a determination.
 
I had a .357 conversion barrel for my Glock 23 (.40).

It shot great, very snappy (Might be abit too much for some), was VERY fast, shot at a bullet-proof vest, it was the only round that fully penetrated, the .40 and .45 only tore some of the Kevlar, but didn't fully penetrate. The vest was strapped onto a tree stump (To semi-simulate a real body), and used XTP reloads on all 3x pistols.

Anyways, I ended up selling mine, I just prefer my .40 Also to reload the .357 Sig, can be quite a pain. You gotta lube, since they don't have carbide dies for necked brass, and just a real pain to make them cycle near-perfect, whereas my .40 barrel, will eat up everything, hence it being a straight-neck round.

Plus IF you're not a reloader or get the ammo free, you'll pay out the butt. I highly suggest you reload if you get a .357 Sig, then it's the same cost as .40, 9mm, etc basically. Just abit harder to find brass, esp laying at the range.


Overall, I'd say get a 40, it does me great. Has the perfect power ratio, and easy to find.
 
I'd like to know your source of information, please.
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I can cite personal experience. I have seen lots of miscreant shot with 357 magnums. Before the 125 was the king of the hill, the 357 was known in LE circles as quite a penetrator. For my years in the Fort Worth, Texas PD we were issued 158 grn Remington 357 magnums. Every one of the shootings I saw were completely ventilated.
 
I can cite personal experience. I have seen lots of miscreant shot with 357 magnums. Before the 125 was the king of the hill, the 357 was known in LE circles as quite a penetrator. For my years in the Fort Worth, Texas PD we were issued 158 grn Remington 357 magnums. Every one of the shootings I saw were completely ventilated.
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I appreciate the information. Have you seen any instances of another individual being struck by the bullet after it left the first body?
 
I'd like to know your source of information, please.
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AH,

Massad Ayoob as documented the 158gr .357 magnums overpenitration in many articles.

It is a very well known fact and that is why the 125gr loads were developed.

Deaf
 
I've been kind of interested in .357 Sig since I heard about, but how close to an actual .357 mag is it shooting wise? Because I love my S&W Model 28, but I would like something a little higher capacity just so I don't have to reload every 6 rounds.
 
Massad Ayoob as documented the 158gr .357 magnums overpenitration in many articles.

It is a very well known fact and that is why the 125gr loads were developed.
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Thanks, Deaf. I have read some of his stuff over the years but not on that topic, and it's something I haven't really seen discussed at all.
 
It seems there may be some confusion here about the 125 gr. and 158 gr. bullets used for the .357 Magnum and the loads used for the 357Sig.

The .357 Magnum earned a very good reputation as a hunting round and a law enforcement round from the earliest years of it's development in the 1930s. In general 158 gr. bullets were used, sometimes a bit heaver or lighter. Cast lead bullets were often used and several companies offered semi jacketed soft nosed bullets for various purposes.

In the 1970 a small company was opened by a fellow called Lee Jurras. The company was Super Vel. Jurras had the idea that if you shot a light weight bullet at higher velocities and you built the JHP bullet right that you could get reliable expansion more times than not. The expansion would be better and more reliable than cast lead bullets. So he developed a line of 110 gr. and 125 gr. bullets for the .357 that allowed for about 1400 fps from a 4" barrel.

These bullets made the reputation of the 125 gr. JHP load from the .357 Magnum. They worked well and other companies followed suit. They also, if they expanded, decreased the likely hood of over penetration.

In the years in between bullets have been developed that reliably expand at lesser velocities and use 148 and 158 gr. bullets. So these days the depth of penetration is not dependent on bullet weight or velocity but on bullet construction. This is in line with law enforcement standards of 12-14 or 16" of penetration and expansion for use against personnel.

Also a good part of the .357Sigs reputation is built on the idea that it will out penetrate the 9mm or the 45acp through some barriers. This is due in part to it's higher velocity.

Folks can look up Super Vel and Lee Jurras on the web.

tipoc
 
Much like the 10mm and the .41 Mag (both of which I own, for the record) the .357 sig will probably be around for a while.

But...there is a difference between "hanging around" and "thriving". I don't see any of those three thriving or growing significantly in popularity. The difference is that the 10mm and the .41 Mag (ammo and firearm sales) are supported strictly by hand loaders and enthusiasts.

The .357 Sig has various LEA use. When/if they move on to "the next big thing"...I'm not sure that there are a lot of enthusiasts. Some, yes, but I only know two guys who shoot .357 Sig. One is a hand loader, one has owned his for at least five years and I have seen him take it out once.

If you have a set of dies and some cases, you will be able to get projectiles, primers and powder, and you will be self-sufficient...just like we 10mm/.41 mag guys are. :)

Don't assume just because a law enforcement agency carry a gun for a living means they are experts.
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Bingo. The government, at every level, has a long history of making decisions made on ego, kickback, or low bidder. The people who make the decisions are administrators, not field/street operators. This applies at every level from fire hydrants to F35s.
 
I appreciate the information. Have you seen any instances of another individual being struck by the bullet after it left the first body?
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No, this is where tactics and training come in. There are several people I did not shoot, that I was justified in shooting, because there were many people milling around behind and around the BG's. The one OP hit I saw was a contact distance shot from a 12 gauge in a melee situation.
 
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but has anyone confirmed for sure that the Air Marshalls ARE using the .357 Sig, or is it just hearsay?
If so, what load are they using?

A 90gr bullet designed for .380 velocities, for instance, might tend to UNDERpenetrate when pushed at .357 Sig velocities...
...or it may just penetrate 10" or so with a ton of authority. Probably not gonna over penetrate. The "laws of physics" argument only has merit if one considers ALL the variables, including bullet weight, design, and expansion at impact velocities.
 
Not to add fuel to the fire, but has anyone confirmed for sure that the Air Marshalls ARE using the .357 Sig, or is it just hearsay?
If so, what load are they using?
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Yes, they use 125 Speer Gold Dots if I recall correctly.
 
Its not going anywhere

.357 Sig is in use in many law enforcment applications around the country. It achieves very nice balistics in the same size package. In both of my Glocks it is more accurate than the .40 s&w barrels that the guns came with.

I basically believe that as long as sig and gap are in use in LE they aren't going anywhere.

Regards, Vermonter
 
Thank you Nanuk.

I'll agree now that, yes, there are better choices for use on a crowded airliner, HOWEVER, I will now go research some gel tests of the Sig vs 9mm, both in 124gr GDHP confifuration.and see what really happens, penetration wise.
 
There is more to shooting safely in a crowded airliner (well as if there is ANY 'safe' way to shoot in a crowded airliner) that just the cartridge.

Some guns are easier to hit with. Some don't recoil as much. Some are more accurate shooting slow fire while others more accurate shooting at speed.

Notice the Air Marshals uses the Sig pistol (a very accurate, reliable, and easy to shoot handgun) in .357 Sig. They looked at the whole package not just the round.

Deaf
 
A lot of that comes down to individual tastes. If they are only issuing one model, then they missed the most important part of the shootability package: the shooter. Personally, for instance, I do not care for the feel or pointability of Sig's very high quality products. Ditto the old SA/DA Smiths. I can learn 'em, but they are not instinctive...
...but give me a P-35, or the XD whose grip frame was inspired by it, and I can make it sing.
So, now that we've left out the shooter, we can get down to picking a cartridge. For use in a crowd, and always indoors, and possibly in the dark, I cannot imagine a worse choice than a .357, whether magnum OR Sig. Throwing out overpenetration, which could happen with any cartridge in a crowd, you still have blast & flash which are substantial with the Sig round.
 
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