.357 SIG, overpenetration and the Air Marshall Service

FAMs, use of force, aircraft; Richard Marcinko...

To my knowledge, 2 armed FAMs "smoke-checked" a violent, unstable subject who yelled that he had a explosive device at a large airport in south Florida.
The FAMs(using standard P229s in .357sig) killed the subject but had no problems or bystanders hurt. This was around 2005.
BTW; Richard "Dick" Marcinko; www.dickmarcinko.com , the US Navy officer who started SEAL-Six AKA DEVGRU & Red Cell(a special counter terrorist unit), wrote about how spec ops use old/DXed aircraft to train in & around.
Also see; No Heroes(FBI/HRT) & Delta Force(Col Charles Beckwith).
They also use old planes, aircraft industry parts to train(with live ammunition).

CF
 
You do realize that you are not Jack Bauer and that the series '24' ended a while ago
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Yeah, I know that I'm not the fictional character Jack Bauer.
I'm not an Air Marshal either.
But the scenarios I mentioned are a very real possibility.

Do you really beleive that a terrorist wouldn't use a passenger as a human shield against an armed Air Marshal???
 
Recently I read that the Federal Air Marshall Service has ordered a number of SIG Sauer P250 in .357 SIG
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First, they are still using P229's in .357 SIG. I doubt they would down-grade to a P250, but then again, the government does do stupid things.

Why of all calibers available did they choose the one that is more than any other known for over penetration?
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After 9/11, they attempted to use frangible's, but quickly learned those didn't have the same stopping power or reliability.

but given the sheer muzzle energy of the .357 SIG it's quite obvious that it is the handgun caliber best suited to punch not only through the BG and injure the bystander but also punctuate an aricraft hull.
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Muzzle energy and velocity are tied directly to the grain of the projectile and charge.

[Rough Estimates From Memory Below]

With target ammo, I usually shoot 140gr FMJ @ 1650+ fps with near 700lbs of muzzle energy.

If I step it down to 115gr FMJ I'm between 1400-1500 fps which averages between 475-515 lbs of energy.

My point, the .357 SIG is an awesome round, feeds well due to the bottle neck design, but only performs slightly better than a 9mm depending upon the cartridge (of course, with the right cartridge it's a beast).

Regarding any hole left in the fuselage, well it's just a 9mm hole (.355), but offers greater static shock to the bad guy.
 
The FAM did switch to the P250. They had to send them back for upgrades but they got them back and they are in service. Some were able to retain their original issued P229 but the current issued firearm is the P250 DAO. They no longer issue the P229. Their selection process is just like any other LEO agency, no magic and it does not always involve the firearms instructors or other people in that agency who are well versed in firearms and tactics.
 
Having some experience in how a Government agency selects handguns, some of the major factors are:

Who has the bosses ear, and what gun he likes,
What 'goodies" come with each gun - we got really junk holsters included with one issue gun - but they were FREE (and not worth it - we all threw them away).
What does everyone else carry - can we get something different? (Not better, just different.)
Where the guns are made - is that state's senator on the appropreations committee?
How much do they offer for our old guns?
etc.
etc.
and oh yes,
Cost - after all it's not their money they are spending.

Notice the absence of input from the field?
 
SlopShot, that's some incredible target ammo... actually, I think you just remembered a wee bit incorrectly.

Factory loadings for 147gr .357 SIG seem to all be in the 1225-1250fps range; barrel lengths not specified.

Factory loadings for 115gr run around 1450-1500fps.

To get 1650fps, you need to drop to an 80gr projectile.

Where do you find 140gr 9mm bullets?
 
Mleake,

I know sellot & Bellot sells 140gr 357 sig fmj ammo. I picked up a box but haven't shot any yet so no opinions on it yet.
 
Thanks; I had never seen 140, and didn't see it listed in the two ballistiics sites I was checking. Will be curious to see how you like it.
 
The FAM got into a shooting with a crazy guy at Miami International Airport. The guy claimed that he had a bomb. He is now dead, FAM had a good shoot. Turns out he was a nutjob and didn't take his meds. Wife complained that FAM could have done something different... with the info they had at the time and the location it was easily a good shoot.

Anyways the 357 Sig (not .357 Sig) has a fibe upstanding record, as for people saying that State Police are small... man power wise they are huge agencies and have a higher number of shootings due to their larger numbers. Thus a higher number of reports on the effects of the cartidge due to those shootings.
 
Manta, when you study actual shootings, and not the popular press reports, you will find the .45 ACP is marginally better than most other handgun rounds.

Heck, we have documented cases of guys running hundreds of yards after absorbing 12 guage slugs.

Don't belive everything you read on the "errornet".
 
Even more "errornet" BS...

The .357sig has a www.wikipedia.org listing that reports how the VA State Police have been very satisfied with the duty round for many years. The state troopers have said the .357sig has dispatched large aggressive dogs(pit bulls) with 1 or 2 JHPs where the 147gr 9mm +Ps did not. ;)

Also, if you read the LE trade manual; Street Survival, there is a detailed account of a intoxicated(drugs) subject who soaked up 33 9x19mm duty rounds and was finally put down by a 12ga rifled slug fired by a ESU/SWAT officer. This was in the early 1970s.

In 2012, the .40S&W & .357sig have been proven to be useful over the older 9mm & .38spl +P rounds for duty/protection.

The .357sig is not for everyone and the .45acp has merit(as does the .44spl, .41magnum, .45LC) but I'm impressed by it's performance.

ClydeFrog
 
Clyde, did they mention
1. where the 33 9mm rounds hit?
2. What kind of ammo?

I gave my copies of Street Survival to a rookie when I retired. If this is the same incident, it was ball ammo, and most (but not all) of the hits were 'on the edges'.

A recient non-fiction Police history book I was reading mentions two (2) seperate cases where bad guys were shot center of mass, and the rounds (most likely .38 Spl Round Nose Lead) passed completly through without hitting anything important.
 
Hi sleuth i was only joking about the .45. I have a .45 and 9mm, if i was
looking a pistol for self defence i would use the 9mm .

Another poster said that a guy took 30 9mm shots. One in the head or heart would have done the job . If he had taken 30 shots form a .45 or any other handgun caliber in the same place as the 9mm the still might not of went down.
 
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JSPs, "Chuck Taylor"...

If I recall(it was a 1,000,000 beers ago :) ) it was JSP(soft point).
It was a transit authority/port authority type event in Chicago IL or New York City. The rifled slug "punched his ticket". Or the subject finally gave or bled out.
Author & tactics instructor; "Chuck Taylor", who supports the 1911a1 .45acp & 230gr FMJ, wrote about a violent subject who took 6 solid hits center mass with a duty size .357magnum; load: 125gr JHP from a LE officer at close range.
The subject was still fighting & standing.
Clyde
 
Manta, there is a well documented case of an LA police woman who took a round directly to the heart (I don't recall the caliber or type of ammo) while off duty. She returned to the police force after healing.

The only round I know always works is a 155mm Howitzer - the 105 is about 98% A point blank hit with a 155 runs 110% (the extra 10% is for bystanders). But the gun is a little large to carry, or tow.
 
I beg to differ on the 155. I believe the 120mm smooth bore has a much better track recrod in that regard. Damned howizte guys just rain explive ammo on top of people. the 120mm is the one that is invovled in the in your face shootouts! (big grin).

Manta, when you study actual shootings, and not the popular press reports, you will find the .45 ACP is marginally better than most other handgun rounds.

Heck, we have documented cases of guys running hundreds of yards after absorbing 12 guage slugs.

Don't belive everything you read on the "errornet".
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When a study is done by professionals without bias, they have found that NO single round has any staticall advantage on any other round (pistol rounds are not effective, 155mm round are the only true one shot stoppers.

What was found was that SHOT PLACEMENT was the only metric that made any difference (keep in mind that is over ALL shootings, not a single incident or event which slews things such as the FBI Miami shootout that was mostly bad training and tactics, or lack there of)

You shoot good with any caliber that is available and you generally win the fight (and statistically again, someone can shrug it off and kill you, but then you may get T boned on the way to work and dies as well).

You stack the odds as best you can in your favor and then its up to the vagaries of the world.
 
What study or studies done by professionals without bias are you speaking about? I bet we would like to read them.
 
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