.357 SIG, overpenetration and the Air Marshall Service
- Thread starter simonrichter
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I agree, it is really a non issue. Massad Ayoob did come up with a handful of instances of a bullet passing through a good guy/bad guy and causing death or injury in an article he wrote. Considering the number of self defense and/or duty shootings that covers I think we should be much more concerned with actually hitting the intended target and decisively stopping the targets actions. Not stopping the bad guy as fast as possible, especially in an aircraft, is far far more dangerous than the possibility of a pass through hitting another passenger.
Exactly. I have an altimeter watch, and when a commercial airliner reaches cruising altitude, it "thinks" it's at the equivalent of around 7,000 ft, give or take a few hundred. It usually varies quite a bit during a flight, even at constant altitude - not sure why that is.
On another topic that came up earlier in the thread, I recall reading that a 747 can maintain pressurization with three entire windows blown out (!), so a bullet hole or two would be inconsequential.
There's far more evidence of overpenetration with round-nose lead ammunition. The .357 Magnum hollow point round gives up a lot of its energy on the way in, giving little opportunity for exiting the target mass.
Police departments, by the score, changed out their traditional 158gr LRN ammunition for the .38 HP, or the .357 Magnum HP, in the '60's and '70's.
Police departments, by the score, changed out their traditional 158gr LRN ammunition for the .38 HP, or the .357 Magnum HP, in the '60's and '70's.
peacefulgary
New member
Maybe they're using the possibility of overpenetration as a tactical option....
The option of shooting through a "good guy" in order to hit the "bad guy" should the bad guy be using the good guy as a human shield.
1. There was a receint report of a police officer killed by a round that penitrated the outlaw. I don't recall the caliber. Since the .357SIG is relativly rare in LE, there are not likely to be many shootings with it and thus even fewer chances of overpenitration.
2. I was a "Sky Marshal" in the very first months of the program (1971). We toured a stripped out 747, and we told you could push a Bic pen through the skin from the inside. Plus, as noted, there were several large diameter valves to let air out of the a/c. Just don't hit the PILOT !
2. I was a "Sky Marshal" in the very first months of the program (1971). We toured a stripped out 747, and we told you could push a Bic pen through the skin from the inside. Plus, as noted, there were several large diameter valves to let air out of the a/c. Just don't hit the PILOT !
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peacefulgary
New member
Not necessarily....
Suppose the terrorist is using a fellow passenger as a shield while trying to activate a bomb that will kill everyone on board.
Or using a fellow passenger as a shield while shooting other passengers.
It would certainly not be immoral to shoot through that human shield in order to save everyone else on the plane.
Should the Air Marshal just stand by and let everyone die?
And I'm not even sure that it would be illegal....do you have any case studies you would like to share of such incidents happening?
If you could stop a plane from being blown to pieces, killing hundreds of innocent passengers, by shooting through one innocent passenger, I think it would immoral to not do so.
While I love my p250 and think it rocks that a $350 gun gets picked, however, i don't think a DAO would be good if they need to make a very percise shot, plus when a hammer is in SA mode the hand/finger movement is less noticible when pulling the trigger, whether or not the BG would notice finger movement either way.
.357 sig
Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't a light, fast bullet loose energy faster than a heavier bullet? A 110 grain hollow point is going to mushroom very quickly and loose energy quickly. That's why the 125 grain .357 Mag is a better man stopper than a 180 grain .357 mag.
But, before you correct me, check your facts, cuz I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't a light, fast bullet loose energy faster than a heavier bullet? A 110 grain hollow point is going to mushroom very quickly and loose energy quickly. That's why the 125 grain .357 Mag is a better man stopper than a 180 grain .357 mag.
But, before you correct me, check your facts, cuz I'm pretty sure I'm right.
You're correct because a lighter bullet is more dependent on velocity for both its energy and momentum than a heavier one. The farther a bullet travels and the more it penetrates, the more velocity it will lose thus decreasing its energy and momentum. When talking about expanding bullets, all else held equal the higher the velocity the more aggressively and quickly the bullet will expand and/or fragment thus shedding velocity and, in the case of fragmentation, weight.
In a relatively soft target like ballistic gelatin, wetpack, water, or tissue, .357 Sig actually isn't significantly more penetrative than any of the other common service cartridges like 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP so long as similar bullet designs are used. From the data on their website, Winchester's Ranger .357 Sig loadings penetrate 12-12.5" in bare gelatin which is within an inch or two of their 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP loadings.
http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/Handgun%20Bullet%20Barrier%20Testing%20Protocol.pdf
As a bomb tech, I went to the FAA's bomb school at OK City which dealt with bombs on airplanes.
We learned where on planes we could put a suspected device where if it went off it wouldn't bring down the plane.
I don't know it for a fact, but I would be willing to bet Air Marshall's are pretty much taught the same thing in regarding the possible shooting on a plane.
We learned where on planes we could put a suspected device where if it went off it wouldn't bring down the plane.
I don't know it for a fact, but I would be willing to bet Air Marshall's are pretty much taught the same thing in regarding the possible shooting on a plane.
Superhouse 15
New member
I worked as a firefighter at an airport station and got crosstrained in many things aircraft related.
Lets not forget that the seats are pretty sturdy, with metal liners and reinforcement. A little barrier penetration ability might be a good thing.
Lets not forget that the seats are pretty sturdy, with metal liners and reinforcement. A little barrier penetration ability might be a good thing.
armsmaster270
New member
In that scenario a good shot can take a head shot if not, shooting through a hostage is a very viable choice.
Some of the elite military units in training, actually have live soldiers play hostage while their teammates shoot the hostage takers.
Some of the elite military units in training, actually have live soldiers play hostage while their teammates shoot the hostage takers.