.357 SIG, overpenetration and the Air Marshall Service

S

simonrichter

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Merry Christmas everyone!

Recently I read that the Federal Air Marshall Service has ordered a number of SIG Sauer P250 in .357 SIG, and apart from that I guess they have used that caliber in other guns for some time now anyway.

That seems a little contradictory to me: The Fedral Air Marshalls work mostly in aircrafts, and when it comes to the worst, it's in the nature of things they will face a situation where hostages are taken. Why of all calibers available did they choose the one that is more than any other known for overpenetration? I'm well aware that the different ballistic tests are heavily disputed themselves, but given the sheer muzzle energy of the .357 SIG it's quite obvious that it is the handgun caliber best suited to punch not only through the BG and injure the bystander but also punctuate an aricraft hull.

Can anybody explain that to me?
 
Maybe they're thinking about overcoming Kevlar vests which determined terrorists could well be wearing. It's a tricky environment for sure...
 
Why of all calibers available did they choose the one that is more than any other known for overpenetration?
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Have you ever heard of an ACTUAL case of overpenetration, in a real-world shooting?

That is what I always ask whenever anyone says this. I usually get a blank response or none at all.
 
A pistol caliber hole in the aircraft isn't a big deal. They all leak pressure when everything is working correctly. The rate of the leak is the issue. As long as it falls within the limits of the system, your good. A .356" hole in the fuselage is the least of your worries if there's a shootout on your aircraft.
 
I'm unaware of any overpenetration issues with the 357Sig. I'm sure that if it was an issue the Secret Service and Air Marshals wouldn't be using it, as they have been for years now. Also, you can punch a mess of little holes in an airplane and they're not going to make a difference.

When I went through the LE Flying Armed course the two things they emphasized most were that no one gets into the cockpit and try not to shoot at the floor, that's where all the electrical and hydraulic stuff runs. They also said it would be good not to shoot at the cockpit door, yes they're hardened now but why take chances.
 
but also punctuate an aricraft hull.
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Ever seen the size of the dump valve used to make sure the aircraft is NOT pressurized on the ground (as in the valve is opened during landing to make sure the pressure is the same as outside)?

A bullet size hole is nothing, and it is at less than 15 PSI.
 
The 357 Sig has a large bark and muzzle flash. I never understood it's use for those two agencies. I know it's liked for the accuracy but for VIP and airline security a 45 acp makes sense. I'm sure they have their reasons.
 
Two things in this thread seem to come up time and time again. Over penetration, and shooting a hole in an aircraft. In the first place, you can shoot a whole bunch of holes in an aircraft before there is any trouble at all unless you hit electrical or hydraulic components, and these all have redundancy built in anyway. A hole will not suck out a passenger etc and etc. In the second place, over penetration should be the least of anyone's worries. Missing should be a worry though. In this respect the Air Marshall's have probably the most stringent marksmanship program going. The bullet that misses the bad guy is a problem, the bullet that hits him is pretty much a non issue. The bad guy who gets hit with a bullet that is low powered enough to assure no through and through penetration may not be enough to stop the threat decisively enough to keep the guy from doing something far more dangerous than being a bullet stop.
 
I too would like to hear stories about the .357SIG over-penetrating.

Agencies that use the round use modern hollowpoint bullet designs.

So, anyone got any stories of multiple instances where the .357 sig hollowpoint does a through and through? It's not *that* powerful a round.

I'd be far more worried about agents missing entirely but that concern is not caliber specific.
 
Thanks for the interesting answers so far. Seems to me that this whole overpenetration issue is a mere phantasm of firemarm theorists (like I am myself :D ) and not a real life problem.

Still, I wonder why they did not choose a .45 solution instead, great stopping power and less muzzle flesh an bark...
 
secret_agent_man, it's not the pressure, it's the differential relative to the air outside the cabin.

In my current aircraft, at 35,000 ft, the differential is around 6.6 PSI.

An "explosive" decompression, which per FAA definition is one that occurs in less than one second (longer than one second would be a "rapid" decompression) is significant, but should not be catastrophic. It can look impressive, as vapor may immediately condense out of the air, and it will get one's attention. However, even at very high altitude, crew members should have at least 20 seconds or more of useful consciousness - and the standard is to be able to put on a quick-donning oxygen mask in 5 seconds.

Obviously, good training and equipment in good working order are paramount.

But those should go without saying in an airline environment.

A 9mm caliber hole in the fuselage should not result in an explosive decompression, though.... that would more or less require a shot to shatter a window, which is not all that easy to do. It wouldn't even cause a rapid decompression, unless it caused some secondary ruptures. It would cause a slow leak, and probably some noise.

I'd be more worried about fuel lines, control cables (or wires if it's a fly-by-wire aircraft) and such. And I'd rather not test the reinforced cockpit door, thank you very much.
 
I don't know about air marshals but in anti terrorism type trainings I have always been taught the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Stopping the threat before they can inflict injury or death of a large group of people is more important then worrying about an over penetrating shot causing collateral damage. With most handgun rounds this is not going to be a large concern anyway and its more of an "anti" gunners argument then anything grounded in physics or real life applications.
 
Let's back up a couple of feet, literally. When the concern about over penetration is considered, it is not just punching a hole in the cabin. The cabin is not overly large. It is a smaller, somewhat confined space with lots of people and lightly built seats. At three or four feet, even more, can a .357 go thru a bad guy and into someone? Very good chance it can if loaded to standard velocity.

Is the .357 in question being loaded down? I doubt the Feds will talk about that. Therefore, I don't think I'd even take it into consideration. Taking the BG out along with a passenger or two, IMO, does not outweigh the needs of a few. If that is an accepted risk, the phrase "Fear of Flying" has taken on a radical new meaning.
 
What is the cabin pressure at commercial passenger get altitudes?
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Typically between 6 and 9 psi differential depending on the airplane and the altitude. Most airliners pressurize the cabin so it's no higher than 8,000 feet, some much lower (like the 787). The lower the cabin (or the higher the flight altitude), the higher the differential.
 
DHS/FAMS, SIG Sauer P229Rs, Massad Ayoob.....

1st off it's Marshals not Marshalls. ;)
Marshalls is a dept store chain. Lol.
The US Dept of Homeland Security, FAMS(Federal Air Marshals Service) has used the SIG Sauer P229Rs in .357sig since about 2002.
To my limited knowledge, the sworn highly trained FAMs(air marshals) have had few problems or complaints with the P229s or the .357sig.
Author, sworn LE officer & use of force expert Massad Ayoob also wrote a detailed article about the US Dept of Homeland Security/FAMS.
See www.Massadayoobgroup.com for contacts, re-prints(if available).
The US Secret Service(also a sworn DHS agency) has issued the SIG Sauer P229 in .357sig since the mid 1990s.
A character on the hit NBC TV series; The West Wing, talked about this subject at length. www.imdb.com

I'd say the FAMs will continue to use the .357sig for many years to come. It's powerful, well engineered & feeds very well in duty pistols.
The new P250 line isn't well respected but SIG Sauer "classic" or P series sidearms are still very impressive IMO.
ClydeFrog
 
thanks again for the interesting inputs. I like this forum. :)

1st off it's Marshals not Marshalls.
I'm not a native speaker, if that's counting as an excuse. We were raised with the blessings of the Marshall Plan, maybe that's where that comes from, but thx for the correction anyway :)
 
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