.357 110 gr. JHP

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I was under the assumption that I should only shoot 158 and up loads out of my Model 13 K frame. Im good with that. Im good with that. I normally carry it with a M38 in my pocket.
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If shooting .38 spl or .38 spl +P, it doesn't matter.
 
Winchester 110 Gr. .357 ammo

I ordered 200 rounds of the WWB 110 Gr .357 magnum sometime back, as it was cheap, less than $30.00 a box. Shot 100 rounds out of my Taurus 617 at an indoor range, that is not as well lit as I think it could be. My impressions were the recoil was very mild, it shot low and left, and I did not notice any noticeable muzzle blast. Based on my limited experience I would only consider this for range ammo.
 
110 gr would beat 38 spcl, but the 125 gr is not much heavier. A hot loaded 125 gr .357 mag is possibly THE best SD handgun load on the planet. Why not go with that?
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+1. About 25 years ago, I chronographed the 125gr JHP for R-F-W to see if the lived up to the 1425fps +/- claimed from a 4". The Fed and Win were consistently close to the money. The Rem. consistently hit 1800fps+/-. IMPOSSIBLE you say. Me too. Come to find out the excessive muzzle blast from the Rem. was zipping across the sensors before the bullet. Backing up a few feet, the Rem was consistently between 1400-1450. From then on, I carried Fed or Win. 125s in my .357s for social work.
 
What you really want is extreme excessive painful recoil, a huge flaming fireball shooting out of the muzzle and cylinder gap, and ringing ears for a week. Whatever else happens does not matter. :rolleyes:
 
Ah well........, back in the day

When my agency carried round guns, the issue load for many years was the .38 +P+ 110gr. As I remember, it was supposed to make 1250 fps from a 4" bbl. NOT! Some batches did, some didn't. When some felons got shot multiple times, w/o clear stops, the agency switched to 125 mag.

That was much gun, and I never felt under armed w/ various K and L frame 'Smiths & the 125/357. As in any agency, where personnel come in all shapes and sizes, w/ varying degrees of experience and ability, the 125's could be a handful for some.

The 110 mag was an option for those folks. It was also a good choice for 2" bbl M19 and 66's as it was just plain more shootable. And it gave better ballistics than the questionable .38/110, +P+.

The magnum era didn't last long, only a handful of years, and I don't recall any shootings (with hits) !!!!!

The switch began to auto pistols. First issue? How 'bout 9mm, +P, 115 gr. Right back where we started! A .35 cal slug, weighing 110-115 grs, at 1100-1200 fps! That's all changed,(.40 and .45 are now options) but ......bureaucracy never learns!
 
I have a S&W model 60 with a 2-1/4" barrel and believe me when I touch off a .357 110 Grn round (reload) the flash is impressive. That being said, shooting a 125 grn .357 has allot of flash and slightly more recoil then we come to the 158 GRN 357 mag! Allot of boom and recoil at full power!

Either way basic math will provide the mussel energy and as the Velocity goes up so does recoil. Energy = Velocity squared divided by 450500 times Mass (bullet weight).

It stand to reason the heaver bullet will have more energy and recoil.

As far as a carry load, I prefer the 125 grn JHP minimum but when camping I carry 158 grn .357 Mag rounds. The 110 is a little light but it will do the job if placed correctly but the flash is GREAT! Balistics state the heaver the bullets more energy expended on the intended target!

This was a great one to read!
 
Hi,
I agree with most the other members that the 110gr won't have enough penetration especially when a attacker is wearing heavy clothing. You would be better to load your S&W340 with a medium power round with at least a 125gr bullet or more. Remingtons Golder Saber 125gr HP is one of the better self defense rounds out there and Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips are good too. And of course the 158gr HP from all the good ammo people will work. My choice would be the Remington Golden Saber for my S&W M66-4 or my Ruger Police Service Six. Recoil is very controllable with this round.
Good Luck,
roaddog28
 
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I agree with most the other members that the 110gr won't have enough penetration especially when a attacker is wearing heavy clothing.

The data is to the contrary -- http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._CorbonDPX.htm

All the 110 gr loads at .38 spl velocities from snubbies penetrated more than 12 inches in bare gel and through four layer denim. Expanded sufficiently, as well.
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That's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Both of those loadings have newer bullet designs which are engineered to offer deeper penetration than older designs like the WWB 110grn .357 Magnums that the OP asked about. Also, JHP's will often penetrate less, not more, at lower velocities as expansion isn't as aggressive. Ramping up the speeds to over 1200fps (as the .357 loads in question do) would likely cause those bullets to open bigger and penetrate less.
 
Good point on the bullet construction being different. I think it would be difficult to generalize that higher velocities would result in lesser penetration because of greater expansion. One thing most people don't think about is when the bullet starts expanding. One which starts expanding two inches into the target will penetrate less than one that starts expanding 5 inches into the target, all other things being equal. And, while higher velocity may result in less penetration due to greater expansion, the additional velocity may be enough to offset the expansion factor. Without actual test data, I don't think we can generalize.

I don't think the 110 gr is going to be a better defensive round than a heavier bullet, just that it is an adequate round with lower recoil than a heavier bullet generally.
 
you shoot a person with a 110g bullet moving at 1200ft/s more or less, that person's day is going to be ruined....and i'd feel pretty safe betting they'll be clearing their calender for the rest of the week as well.
regardless how many pieces the bullet breaks in to or how large it expands to.
 
Good point on the bullet construction being different. I think it would be difficult to generalize that higher velocities would result in lesser penetration because of greater expansion.
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It used to be true that this was the case, particularly in the early decade or so of the widespread adoption of JHP rounds. It was true that both the 110 and 125 gr. loads tended to penetrate less and break up too often. Because it used to be true many repeat the old generalizations that a 110 gr. JHP will penetrate less than a 158 gr. JHP. But, in practice this has not been the case for quite some time now.

The 1986 Miami shootout and it's aftermath are the reasons for this. In the years following the shootout a variety of studies were commissioned by the FBI, Justice Dept. and others and the FBI and others settled on what they wanted as a minimum for penetration and expansion of ammo they could recommend. This was 12-14" in 10% ballistic gelatin with adequate expansion which began 4-6" into the struck object. Ammo manufacturers worked hard on bullet construction to meet these goals and by the mid 1990s they were met. This included loads for a 110 gr. jhp round for .357. They have been improved on since.

To state this again; any quality JHP ammo produced for defensive purposes and considered useful for law enforcement will penetrate 12-14" in 10% ballistic gelatin and begin it's expansion 4-6" inside the target. They will penetrate no further (or not much further, unless plugged up) than that. Thus a 158gr. JHP pill will penetrate 12-14" as will a 110" bullet if properly built.

Now if we were speaking of LSWCHP, for example, than the 158 gr. will tend to penetrate deeper than the 110 or 125 gr. If the 110 is a Glazer Safety Slug it will of course break up 2" or less into the target.

One other point. Actual recoil is different from felt recoil. The actual recoil of a 158 gr. bullet at 1100 fps will be heavier than a 125 gr. pill at 1350 fps. But the felt recoil of the latter is usually more profound, pronounced and annoying.

tipoc
 
Another thing to remember about penetration is that momentum plays as large a role as energy and velocity, specifically in its relationship to energy. It is momentum, not energy, that causes a bullet to continue to penetrate. Energy, in and of itself, actually retards penetration due to Newton's third law (every action has an equal and opposing reaction). Basically, the more energy with which a bullet strikes its target, the more force pushes back against the bullet thusly retarding penetration. In order to achieve maximum penetration, what you want is a bullet with lots of momentum, but as low an energy-to-momentum ratio as possible. Increasing weight rather than velocity is the most effective means to achieve this because velocity has an exponential effect on energy but weight and velocity have equal effect on momentum. As this relates to .357 Magnum loadings, consider the following numbers:

Remington 110grn .357 Magnum SJHP: 1295fps velocity, 410 ft.lbs energy, 20 lb.ft/sec momentum. energy to momentum ratio is 20.5:1

Remington 125grn .357 Magnum SJHP: 1450fps velocity, 583 ft.lbs energy, 25 lb.ft/sec momentum, energy to momentum ratio is 23.32:1

Remington 158grn .357 Magnum SJHP: 1235fps velocity, 535ft.lbs energy, 27 lb.ft/sec momentum, energy to momentum ratio is 19.81:1

While the 110grn loading has a better energy to momentum ratio than the 125grn loading, it's got less overall momentum and therefore penetrates slightly less. The 158grn loading, on the other hand, has both more momentum and the best overall energy to momentum ratio and thusly penetrates the deepest as per its reputation.

Please also note that I chose these three loadings for comparison due to their extremely similar bullet designs. If comparing two loadings with radically differing bullet designs, such differences must be taken into account (the 110grn would likely be the most penetrative if it were a FMJ while the others were SJHP's). Cross-sectional density also plays some role, but only to the point that maximum cross sectional density allow maximum weight (and thusly a higher energy to momentum ratio) for a given caliber (to increase weight, length must increase because diameter cannot).
 
Energy, in and of itself, actually retards penetration due to Newton's third law (every action has an equal and opposing reaction). Basically, the more energy with which a bullet strikes its target, the more force pushes back against the bullet thusly retarding penetration.
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I have a question about this formulation of the subject here. It's been popping up the last year or so, or rather, the first time I heard it put this way was about a year ago. I'm not sure that it's right. To my understanding there is no "force" that "pushes back against the bullet" when an object is struck. The kinetic energy that a bullet has when it strikes an object is transferred in several ways; heat, deformation of the round (expansion), penetration, noise, etc. But no equal force rises up, so to speak, to oppose it.

If I shoot a 1" thick piece of pine the round expends energy in penetrating the board. The board shows (or expends) an "equal" amount of energy in splitting in two.

So while it's true that "for every action there is an equal or opposite reaction" the reaction will not always take the form of an opposing action. One example of this is that a round with much higher energy than a 9mm or 357, the .223 or 22-250 will penetrate our 1" board much more easily than the .357. If the formulation above..." Energy, in and of itself, actually retards penetration due to Newton's third law (every action has an equal and opposing reaction). Basically, the more energy with which a bullet strikes its target, the more force pushes back against the bullet thusly retarding penetration." was accurate the higher energy rounds would have more trouble penetrating. But we know this is not the case.

Penetration is effected by momentum, but also as was mentioned by bullet construction. Diameter of the round effects penetration as well. The smaller diameter round meets less resistance to it's passage than a larger diameter. The bullet with more mass (weight) may penetrate more deeply with proper bullet construction. More energy enhances penetration with a proper bullet. It's the balance of these factors that make for a useful round, seems to me.

tipoc
 
Quote:
Energy, in and of itself, actually retards penetration due to Newton's third law (every action has an equal and opposing reaction). Basically, the more energy with which a bullet strikes its target, the more force pushes back against the bullet thusly retarding penetration.
I have a question about this formulation of the subject here. It's been popping up the last year or so, or rather, the first time I heard it put this way was about a year ago. I'm not sure that it's right. To my understanding there is no "force" that "pushes back against the bullet" when an object is struck. The kinetic energy that a bullet has when it strikes an object is transferred in several ways; heat, deformation of the round (expansion), penetration, noise, etc. But no equal force rises up, so to speak, to oppose it.
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It has to do with the elasticity of the target. For example the dry pine boards you mention is much less elastic than several feet of wet newsprint. The pine board, due to its relative inelasticity, will exert the greatest resistance primarily on the frontal surface of the bullet. Because of this, the inelastic target will be penetrated best by the bullet which delivers the most force over the smallest area. This is why a 7.62x25 Tokarev will outpenetrate a .44 Magnum in such a medium.

However, the penetration track of a more elastic medium like wet phone books will attempt to recoil back into place thusly causing more friction against not only the frontal area but also the sides of the bullet. Friction will reduce the velocity of the bullet thusly reducing its momentum and penetration. Bullets with a lower energy to momentum ratio tend to be less reliant on velocity for both their energy and momentum and are thusly less effected by velocity loss.

Honestly, there's probably even more complicated factors that play into penetration that I don't fully understand. An interesting read is the Linebaugh Penetration seminar.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp
 
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This debate can go on forever. All I know comes from people I know and there experience. Most of my friends are ex law enforcement. I will stick with my heavier grain rounds.

Regards,
roaddog28
 
Nice explanation, though, Webley - makes sense. Just remembered why I became a member of this forum.
Gb,
swsnub
 
I plink with 38spl in anything that is cheap. I try to keep a few boxes of full wadcutters around as an emergency round. But when it comes to loading my S&W Model 13-1 with 357 magnum rounds for home defense; "It's my night stand gun", it is loaded with 158 grain rounds. Either Hydr-shok or Hornady XTP.
 
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