.30/30WIN a hard kicker?

I've shot a 94 Winchester and a 336 XLR Marlin in .30-30. The steel butt plate on the Winchester is the culprit IMO.

The actual recoil is the same with the same ammo, but the Winchester with the steel butt plate can really be felt after 10 rounds especially if you are wearing a tee shirt. The Marlin is a pussycat with the same loads because it has a good butt pad and has a slightly heavier laminated stock and also wears a scope. The slightly heavier weight, the very good pad, and maybe a more modern stock shape makes all the difference in the Marlin.

But you probably would never notice the difference with a coat on if you had a buck in your sights. If I had never gotten the Marlin, I wouldn't have suspected that two lever rifles in the same caliber would have such different felt recoil with the same ammo.

I also have a CZ 550 .30-06 with a good butt pad and while the recoil is heavier than either of the .30-30s (the push is heavier especially with heavier bullets), the pad makes it easier to shoot than the old Winchester .30-30.

My 1903 Springfield in .30-06 also has a skinny steel butt plate and is a real bear to shoot in comparison to the CZ, even though the 1903 is much heavier. I got a slip on butt pad for it and it tamed the felt recoil. Eliminating the hard butt plate against your shoulder changes everything.
 
I may have been the party referred to.
And points 1 and 2 apply.
The .30-30 in question was a neighbor's '94 Carbine with a scope in side mount, complete with light weight, crooked stock, narrow buttplate, and negligible cheekweld. All that added up to unpleasant recoil.

A couple of pounds more weight, a Monte Carlo stock with recoil pad, and a low scope mount make my Model 70 a lot more comfortable to shoot, Newton notwithstanding.

It has been a LONG time since they made rifles, even commemoratives.
A friend diverted a Canadian Centennial (they made a zillion of those things) with long octagonal barrel for shooting. It was a fine iron sight rifle, just that Winchester market studies had convinced them that a lever action rifle would not sell as well as a carbine. I'd rather have a 6.5 Mannlicher about the same size as a '94 carbine.
 
Another vote for the narrow steel buttplate as the primary cause, although the relatively light weight of a 94 is part of the problem.
 
Marlins weigh about a pound heavier. But have a different stock profile which helps. (pistol grip)
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I have a couple of Marlins, one a 336Y with the pistol grip, no recoil pad, and an 1895G "Guide Gun", which has a straight stock, and came with a fairly large recoil pad.

The first thing I did when I got the 1895G, was remove that silly recoil pad, and fitted a butt plate to it. Unfortunately, the only butt plates available these days, are the cheap and somewhat slippery plastic/hard rubber type. I would jump right on something like the checkered steel butt plate my pre 64 Winchester 94 has, but anything like that passed with that era.

The 336Y is their "youth" model, and has what I consider a proper LOP for a rifle of the type. Their other rifles, especially those with recoil pads, are to long.

Ive had a number of Winchesters, in a number of calibers over the years as well, and never found them to be painful to shoot. They also have the same, shorter, LOP.

I dont mount optics on my lever guns, and much prefer irons on them. That may be some of the difference here for me. Most of the "pre 60's" commercial rifles, regardless of action type, and most all the military rifles, have a LOP and stock design, meant for "quick" use with iron sights. You shoot with your head down and forward on the stock, and the rifle pulled tight into the pocket in your shoulder.

Scoping rifles stocked for irons can and does create trouble. You very often dont get a proper cheek weld, and you head position is off. If you want to really aggravate things, use those "see thru" mounts you see on so many rifles in the used gun racks. I couldnt even begin to count the number of lever guns Ive seen with them mounted on them over the years.

Its hard enough to get a lever gun to shoulder and shoot naturally with a low mounted scope, theres no way you can shoulder and shoot one properly with the scope mounted in the stratosphere like that.


Im thinking a lot of the problem here is how people learned to shoot, and what they learned to shoot on.

I rarely see people shooting from field positions at the range when Im there, which are much more forgiving on the shooter when it comes to recoil. When you shot this way, the rifle and you are one, and you move together under recoil.

Most everyone I see, shoots from a rest at a bench. Even with a longer stock with a recoil pad, which tends to be more comfortable off a bench, the bench still tends to be hard on you when you shoot, as you cant properly shoulder the rifle and move with it under recoil.

The rifle needs to fit you properly, and it needs to be a part of you, as it goes through the recoil cycle. If you cant look at something, close your eyes and shoulder the gun, open them, and have the sights on, or very close to, what you were looking at when you closed them and shouldered the gun, then the gun doesnt fit you properly, and likely wont be comfortable to shoot, or shoot well for you.

If youve shouldered the rifle properly, when you pull the trigger, you should feel a "push", not a "kick".
 
This falls under "perceived recoil". Lightweight lever action carbines with short, slender stocks do indeed kick. A 30-30 with 18 lbs of recoil in a 5.5 lbs gun with a skinny stock and hard butt plate will seem to kick harder than a 7.5 lbs 30-06 with 26 lbs of recoil that has proper LOP and a recoil pad. It is very simple math: lbs of force/square inch. What you do with that is entirely a different story, but if it feels like it kicks hard, it kicks hard. As I found out with my 8mm Rem Mag, how you feel about recoil has a lot to do with how you react to recoil.
 
big al hunter said:
I would have to assume that the 30-30 has a steel butt plate, and the 30-06 has a thick soft recoil pad.:) otherwise that entire statement make no sense whatsoever.
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+ 1 , now yesterday I shot my friends 71 years old 303, metal but plate, damn that thing hurt.....
I have 2 marlin in 30-30 (I gave one to my son when he turned 14 two years ago) I also own a 1951 marlin with waffle top in .35 rem, and that one kick a lot harder than the 30-30
 
I went and looked at WIN 94's in .30/30 today ..... the WIN and the Marlin are different cats altogether ..... pencil barrel no bigger than the paper thin mag tube, sliver thin stock (with most of it's mass all the way to the rear!) that angled down sharply from the reciever, and ending in a steel buttplate...... the 336C right next to it looked positively massive in comparison. I did not weigh the 94, but I'd eat my hat if it weighed more than 6 lbs., empty.

I can see where that might kick a bit more ..... I doubt it kicks as hard as a 7 1/2 lb aught six bolt gun though ......
 
I recently put about 100 rounds through my newer Model 94 short rifle ( miroku made ) 30-30 at the range and shot it from the bench & off hand at ranges from 25 to 200 yards !
It was so much fun I didn't notice any uncomfortable recoil while shooting but did feel a little sore the next day ! My 1886 chambered in 45-70 has more umph but even that is a creampuff with 405's going about 1350 fps !
 
Im still going with perception here.

From what Ive been hearing in this thread, people are still complaining about guns that really dont have heavy recoil, and I can only assume, are doing something wrong if they think they are.

Im not saying this PFA either. For years, I used to regularly shoot 100+ rounds of .308 or 30/06 a weekend, every weekend, year round, practicing for shooting in different matches. All those rifles had steel butt plates, and in the summer, I shoot them in a tee shirt.

These days I dont shoot them that much, but I still shoot one or the other of them a couple of times a month, and no fewer than 50 rounds at an outing. Lately, Ive been shooting a lot of 30/30, and a good bit of 45/70 as well, none of which I find the least bit uncomfortable.

well, Ill take that last part back for one. If you want to get a true perception of recoil, stop by, and Ill let you shoot my Ruger #3 in 45/70 with 500 grain jacketed bullet running around 1700fps. Picture in your mind, shooting a 10/22 or Mini 14 chambered in 45/70. I will admit there, thats not much fun at all, and would be a lot more comfortable watching someone else shooting it. :)
 
I'm not sure. the 2 hardest recoiling (perceived) guns I ever fired were considered "wimpy".

I own & use a .357 Mag pistol with a 6" heavy barrel, so I'm familiar with .357 recoil. I was seriously looking at getting a "Trapper" rifle in .357 to go with it as a same-caliber companion. Then I fired one, it kicked way harder than I was expecting. I have no idea why but I swear the heavier 16 1/2" carbine recoiled harder than the pistol!

Second up was a .380 Beretta, I forget the model, but it was a beast to fire, even though its a .380 load.

I can't explain it & I shoot a .308, a .303 Brit & a .357 Magnum 6" all the time with no problems & have used .44 mags, 7mm Rem Mags & so on with no problem so its not that I'm inherently a "Girlie man", but there is something working there that isn't "in the math":)
 
I can say that perception is everything. My 45-70 BFR feels like it kicks less then my Rugar Redhawk .44 mag.

My 94 in .44 mag hardly even kicks at all. My Remington 700 30-06 is beast compared to anything else I own. I own a 7mm Mauser, 300 Win mag, 300 Savage, 30-30, 308, and .223.

Now you guys have me curious about my 30-30. I have got to go shoot it now! It is a early 60s 94 so it should be representative of what thie thread is about.

I will report back.

Mel
 
30/30 Win a hard kicker?

When I was 12 I loaded my 12 gauge double with 00 buckshot and fired both barrels at once, just to see what it would do. From then on, everyone thought I acted different.
 
A muzzleloader??

The most bruised up I have ever been was with my T/C Hawken and a long afternoon at the range.
The Hawken was a .50 cal, and I was going elk hunting.

So the order of the day was 500 grain conicals over 110 grains of Pyrodex.

Holy smokes........I was foolish enough to shoot those rounds from about every position. A standing offhand shot was tolerable, just a big shove.

Prone was the worst!! That skinny crescent butt really concentrates the recoil force. When shooting prone, there is no where for it to go, except of course me.

The weight of the rifle, the size and shape of the butt............and especially how hard the butt is all total up.

The weight of the gun plays a big part in recoil. As does the stock design.

The "fit" of the stock is the wild card here, pretty easy to quantify in numbers the recoil force.

Makes darn little difference when it comes to felt recoil. That's a very subjective thing, and darn near impossible to express in hard numbers.
 
30-30 recoil ?

I have two; a 6# Winchester 94 lever-gun and a 7-1/2# Savage 170 pump gun (scoped). The chester from the bench, kicks very-hard, standing up, no problems.
The Savage of course is a ***** cat (high comb/pistol grip stock) and a lb and a half heavier. I did install a Pachmayer 3/8" Red pad on the chester, it's much better now!:D
 
.30-30 Win a hard kicker?

Absolutely yes, in some guns and not in others.

There is recoil as a quantifiable force that can be expressed in numbers, and there is recoil that one feels, that cannot be expressed in numbers.

Different people will feel recoil differently. Some are very sensitive, some hardly at all. And what matters to the feel, are the actual recoil energy, the weight of the gun, the size and shape of the stock, the fit of the stock to the shooter, and the way the gun is held when fired.

The summer before I was legally able to hunt deer, in the early 70s, I was learning to shoot the common deer rifles that my dad and his friends owned. In that time and place that meant a Winchester 94 .30-30 (or .32 Special) or the Marlin, among others.

On one outing, I got to shoot a model 94 .30-30, and a Remington Model 600 .308 Win. That day I also got to meet and shoot the Colt AR-15 (which was am uncommon rifle in those days), and I got to meet, but not shoot the loudest gun on the planet (or so I thought that day) and FN 49 in 7mm Mauser.

Summer day, t-shirts, and a few rounds through the 94 and I had a near perfect impression of the checkered steel buttplate impressed into my shoulder. And a lovely red it was! That sucker kicked the snot out of me, almost literally.

And it was entirely because of the way the stock fit me, and the size, shape, and material of the butt.

In contrast, the Remington carbine in .308 Win did not kick the snot out of me. It was stout, but not nearly as unpleasant/painful even though the recoil force is more powerful than the .30-30.

Curiously, none of my Dad's buddies would shoot the .308 more than twice, and most only once, saying it kicked too much!

In the 40+ years since that day, I have put more than a few rounds through that Rem 600, and shot it (informally) against friends with a number of other guns. It kicks a bit. Everyone says so. Some say it kicks a LOT. But it doesn't kick me as bad as a Winchester 94.

I have a Marlin 336, sweet gun, and I think the best .30-30 lever gun around. Much nicer to shoot than the Winchester, to me. Compared to the 94, the 336 has a nice fat butt, which is something I have found I enjoy in other things as well.

Guns like the 94, or even the Marlin, which runs about a pound heavier, or the 600 are intended to be carried a lot, and shot a little at a time. So, you pay a bit for the weight of easy carry in felt recoil.

The old 94s are the absolute worst for me, but then anything with the old style curved "rifle" butt is painful, unless everything is done just right, and then its only uncomfortable. For me. I never could understand why that shape was popular, other than after you fired your one shot from your flintlock, it made a better war club than a "shotgun" style buttstock.

I don't consider myself particularly recoil sensitive. I have rifles from .22 Hornet to .458 Win Mag. And compared to the big ones, the .30-30 is not much, really, but in its class, the 94 Winchester is a vicious little beast, for some of us. Next guy might think its a pussycat.

If you want to get a true perception of recoil, stop by, and Ill let you shoot my Ruger #3 in 45/70 with 500 grain jacketed bullet running around 1700fps
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I think I have a fair grasp of that recoil level, although I don't run 500gr through my No.3. A 350gr at a measured 2200fps is enough to walk me back a step, or at least consider it. :D Important safety tip: DO NOT SHOOT this load from the PRONE position!

TO me, a 400gr at the regular BP speed is a pussycat out of that same gun, and will put 3 shots in two holes at 50yds and nearly that good at 100. Might even do better if I wasn't using a 2.5x post...

On the other hand, I have a friend who shoots Sharps rifles in .45-70. Won't touch my little Ruger, even with HIS ammo, cause "it kicks too much!"

No matter what the numbers say, its what we feel, and how we handle it that matters.
 
Standard 45-70 405 is the only rifle load I can remember hearing hitting the paper at 100yds, very, very mild load. Weight of gun important, oh yea, I had a 10" Contender with an octagon barrel, very nasty.
 
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