30-06 vs .308 for mid to long range?

I am not seeing a 200fps different with Hornady Superformance 165 SST.
30-06 is 1997fps and the 308 is 1902fps at 500 yards.

165 -168 grain is about the best BC you can get for this caliber. Since both the 308 and 30-06 are more than capable hunting rounds, I stretched their range out to 500yards to where there difference in velocities might make any difference.

At 500 yards the difference is 95ft per second.;). Both calibers are capable of killing a elk at that range. Show me what range both of these calibers have to shoot for 95fps to make any killing difference?? The farther past 500yards you go the closer their velocities get.
I am not cherry picking my ballistics either. These both are the fastest velocities you can get with both calibers. 95fps is splitting hairs to say the least. Factor in modern hunting bullets and its a waisted comparison.

The killing power difference is so close and such a non factor it would be like dropping a 1/2 ton pickup 15 feet or 17 feet on top of you. Your extremely dead regardless.
 
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Interesting observations...
When you shoot in a match that only 308 is allowed for what 30 yrs it's pretty simple to say 308 is the most accurate.
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That’s only happened in the USA since the late 1990's when the NRA changed the rules for what a Palma rifle had to be chambered for. Prior to that, either the .30-06 or .308 Win could be used. That was the original rule (I wrote it in 1989 for the NRA) so folks shooting their M1903's, M1917's and M1's or any other rifle with .30-06 chambers could compete without having to get a new barrel or rifle. But the NRA High Power Rifle Committee wanted more folks to shoot .308's as that’s the only round allowed by International Palma Competitions.

Until the middle 1970's, the cartridge requirement for NRA match rifles was it had to be 30 caliber and for special matches allowing any caliber, they had to be no larger than 8mm.

I could see NRA going to the 308 for those matches since other countries have a say on what's being used.
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Explained above, but here’s more details. The USA has only one member on the International Palma Committee. All the others feel its best to have everyone shoot the same ammo to “level the playing field.” No handloads allowed as that would give some an advantage that’s not equal acoss all competitors. As the present cartridge is the NATO standard, that’s what they want to use from local arsenals and that’s what they vote for making the rules.

When the 30-06 was dropped if it was only for accuracy why didn't the retest the classification system given using the 30-06. Same when they changed target size.
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.30-06 cartridges were never dropped by the NRA as a legal cartridge except for what Palma rifles had to be chambered for (see above). The classification system had to be the same because the rules allowed any 30 caliber cartridge. And both were used in the same match, same division and same category all on the range at the same time. Target scoring ring sizes for high power matches were changed for 200 to 600 yard targets in 1966 and 800 to 1000 ones in 1972. That was done because of the high numbers of unbreakable ties shot by folks using more accurate cartridges and having to follow NRA rules to break ties. ‘Twas caused by .308's being used all the way to 1000 yards (mainly service and Palma rifles past 600) and shorter 30 caliber magnums in “any rifle” divisions for long range matches. But that didn’t prevent some folks using .30-06's and .300 H&H’s trying to outscore .308's and. 30-.338's or .300 Win Mag’s; they never succeeded overall but on rare occasions they did win.

The .30-06 was never dropped by the NRA High Power Committee for match rifles. The NRA rule for decades had been the NRA match rifle had to be 30 caliber; no specific case shooting 30 caliber bullets was stated. Someone could have used a .300 Savage, .30-.30 Win. Or even the .30 Carbine at all stages through 600 yards. Someone decided to shoot a .308 Win. in 1963 and won that year’s Nationals. Others with his skills tried both .308 and .30-06 cartridges in equal quality rifles; the .308 shot more accurate. A few years later, the 5.56 NATO round was allowed in service rifles for that division. Soon thereafter, any caliber under 8mm was allowed; including the .30-06. The .30-06 fell out of favor as it was easier to get more accuracy using the .308 Win. and smaller caliber cases as soon as good bullets were available for them.

NRA is a score shoot also classification system but it's not perfect in that once you get to High Master you never have to shoot to that level again. Maybe that's one reason they never retested.
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A common belief, but not so. Once you’re assigned an NRA classification, you have to shoot at least the scores that got your that classification else you dropped to a lower one. If you don’t shoot at all for several years, you get to start over again at the bottom. New shooters typically start as “unclassified masters.

Besides winning they give classification awards
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And sometimes a lower classified shooter gets an award for shooting a lower score than a higher classified one shot and didn’t get an award.

On another thought:

But the velocity of the 30-06 does have an edge over the 308 in a bolt rifle. Not much of an edge but 200 fps on average is still a edge.
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If one compares muzzle velocity between these cartridges when the only difference is the chamber and cartridge dimensions, they'll see the average muzzle velocity difference is about 100 fps. Check the pages listing each cartridges' muzzle velocity and pressures for different bullet weights for their standard specifications in:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

Of course, if you supercharge either cartridge, it'll shoot a given bullet out faster. But that makes the playing field no longer level. Doesn't matter that it's less accurate winning the race to the target.

It boils down to free choice; that's what people did watching the .308 Win. shoot better scores when several cartridges were allowed. Same reason the .308 Win. started disappearing in the late 1990's when 28, then 26 and finally 24 caliber bullets became as accurate as the 30 caliber ones. People shifted to those ligher recoiling ones shooting bullets that bucked the wind good enough. Folks are free today to shoot .30-06 cartridges in virtually all high power rifle matches. Nothing prohibits that.
 
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So much of the debate centers around what you really really intend to do with the rifle in its end configuration.

Currently, the US military has been rebarreling its .308 Remington 700 precision/sniper rifles to 300 Win Mag. The rifles were built on the long action, originally intended for chambering in 30-06. However, politics, logistics and other worthwhile considerations caused the rifles to end up being chambered in .308.

For the military's uses, read that shooting people at long ranges, the .308 simply runs out of gas. From what I have read, it is sputtering at 800 yards. Does that mean that military precision shooters haven't used the .308 for spectacular results, no it doesn't. There have been numerous shows on the Military Channel detailing incidences in Iraq and Afghanistan and military personnel wringing incredible results from their equipment.

However, the extra powder capacity of the .300 Win mag extends the useful range, and with the extra capacity of the 30-06, it would also, especially if approached in a scientific, detailed fashion.

The downside of course, is barrel life. The 30-06 offers better barrel life than the .300 Win Mag does, or other hot .30 caliber.

I have a casual acquaintance that has a 30-06 that will shoot 4" groups at a 1000 yards. However the man has been shooting long range for a long time small airplane company, he had the depth of pocket and height of heel to be able to pay for an accurate weapon.

Here is an interesting read on a 30-06 competition rifle. It discusses the build of the target rifle that was used and reloading the 06 for competitionand has the skill set to utilize the rifle's capability. Also as the owner of a

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek091.html
 
Any 30 caliber rifle will shoot 4 inch groups at 1000 yards; once in a while with only a few shots. That's been happening for decades. I don't know of any that'll shoot no worse than 4 inches all the time.

The most accurate benchrest rifles these days keep all shots under 6 to 7 inches in good conditions; they too, shoot tiny groups once in a while. Some few-shot groups are down in the 2 inch range or better and aggreages (group averages) are in the 4 to 5 inch range. These are the record groups. All the others are larger; 2x to 4x larger. These rifles are fired in free recoil virtually untouched by humans except for a finger tip on a 2 ounce trigger.

Shoulder fired match rifles are no different; they're just as accurate properly tested but that's masked because they shoot bullseye targets slung up in prone and the best they do is typically 20 inches at 1000 yards. Records with shoulder fired rifles at 1000 yards are about 10 inches and there's only one of two of those.

Super accurate rifles do not need an owner with deep pockets. But most folks think that's the way to tiny groups.

In the above link on building a .30-06 match rifle, I noticed an interesting remark: " but if the shooter can manage the recoil well, it shouldn't prove to be too much of a disadvantage, and 4000- to 5000-round accurate barrel life is a definite plus." Considering the average barrel of .30-06 barrels back in its heyday for long range matches was only 1500 to 2000 rounds as judged by the match winners and record setters back then, that article's author has limited credibilty in my opinion. Even the .308 Win. has only 2000 to 2500 rounds of long range accuracy to be competitive in the hands of top ranked competitors.
 
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Bart B, As to the classification please show rules "Once you’re assigned an NRA classification, you have to shoot at least the scores that got your that classification else you dropped to a lower one" .

This is what I read.

A competitor will be reclassified downward only upon request in writing by him to the NRA, and only on the basis of at least 320 shots (180 shots for Prone Classification) recorded as prescribed,fired subsequent to the effective date of his current classification. If his average on this basis so justifies he will be reclassified downward accordingly.

http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf
 
I am not seeing a 200fps different with Hornady Superformance 165 SST.
30-06 is 1997fps and the 308 is 1902fps at 500 yards.
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And sometimes the difference is even less but compare the heavier bullets and the 30-06 difference becomes clear.
Add to that the fact that you can easily get bullets from about 100-200 grain.

Also download that Federal Permium ballistics calculator and tou will see that starting at about 150 grain the difference is indeed is about 200 fps at 400 yards.

Don't know about Hornady. I never use them.
Only because my rifles seem to shoot Federal more accurately.
Their Vital-Shock is very good for my 308 and 30-06's.
 
Old roper, you're right on getting a lower classification. I was thinking about the rule that says your classification is dropped if you don't shoot for a period of time. Rule 19.9 specifically.

It used to be ruled that shooting low scores got you reclassified lower. That changed a few years ago as you saw then reminded me. If reclassified back up to what he was, he will not be reclassified back down; that stuck in my mind and probably mixed me up.
 
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Bart B, The course of fire for high powder rifle long range classification is shot at 800,900 and 1000yds per NRA rules and you get classification based on one yardage not all three.

Mid range classification is 300,500 and 600yds

I'd have to see some rules books on how they drop classification since each yardage isn't requirement for classification.

I should mention I'm not trying to get into a contest with you just asking civil question and expect you'll answer that way.
 
Roper, I know you're asking civil questions.

If one shoots "any rifle" in 20-shot matches only at one of the three long ranges, that's fine to get classified. Should they shoot a Palma rifle across the 45-shot Palma course, all three ranges' 15-shot scores are totaled and used to establish a long range classification.

In rule 19.5.1 Courses of Fire Used for High Power Rifle Long Range Classification, it mentions two courses of fire for long range classification; any rifle with 20 shots at either 800, 900 or 1000 yards, or the Palma course which is 45 shots with 15 shots fired at each range at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. The 20-shot any rifle matches can all be shot at one range but the Palma course uses three different ranges. Either course of fire can be used to establish a long range classification.

Rule 19.5.2 Courses of Fire used for Mid-Range Prone Classification states ranges of 300, 500 and 600 yards can be used when not part of an NRA High Power Rifle tournament or is part of a Mid-Range Tournament that can be fired at all three ranges. If all three ranges are used in a mid range match aggregate, then the scores for all ranges would be used to establish a classification.

This sometimes gets complicated; I sure was when these new rules were put in effect. But it does give clubs with shorter ranges shooting prone slow fire matches an opportunity to get folks classified for such shooting. Especially if 800 yards is the longest range a club has, they can still shoot matches with any rifle, a service rifle or a Palma rifle and get a long range classification. I think this it's a good idea to get more folks in different areas into the prone competition and ends up putting more people in the pool of shooters to work their way onto the USA Palma Team.

Regarding classifications being dropped (obsoleted). . . .

Rule 19.9 Obsolete Classifications and Scores—All classifications and scores (including temporary, Rule 19.14) except Master, shall become obsolete if the competitor does not fire in NRA competition at least once during 3 successive calendar years. Master classifications and scores shall become obsolete if the competitor does not fire in NRA competition at least once during 5 successive calendar years. Lifetime Master classifications will not become obsolete.

Once obsolete, you have to start over again to get reclassified. Lifetime Master classifications have not been issued for several years, but those who got it long ago still get to keep it.

Hope all this helps you understand. It used to be a lot simpler.
 
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Picking between the 308 and the 06 used to be pretty simple. The traditional 06 twist was 1:10, necessary to stabilize the old 220 grain bullet from the parent 30-03 cartridge.

The 308 was supposed to be sort of a "product improved" 30-06 in that with the newer powders of the 1950s, you could get about the same velocity with the same 150 grain bullet, albeit with slightly higher pressure. A 1:12 twist is all that was needed to stabilize the 150 grain bullet, and works okay up to 180 grain-some to 190 grain bullets. For most factory produced rifles, the 06 continued with the 1:10 twist while the 308 used 1:12.

I see now that some makers are going to the 1:10 twist on the 308 but I don't know for sure why. The 190 grain and heavier bullets are going to crowd the powder space quite a bit, and with modern expanding bullets, I really don't see a performance advantage in going above 180 grains in my 308.

The other advantage to a short action rifle concerning accuracy is that the action is a bit stiffer, but I think that unless you are building a custom rifle, that advantage is probably more theoretical than actual.

I don't notice standard actions to be any smoother than my short action, but I have to admit that I have shot short action rifles for so long that when I do operate a standard length, it feels like I have to pull the bolt back a longgg way to cycle it, even though the actual difference is not really that much.
 
David, if one checks the details of how the .308 became the favorite competition cartridge over the .30-06 from late 1963 through the next few years, here's what they'll observe. And the difference was microscopic. The first .308 chambered rifles that outscored the .30-06 ones were identical except for their chambers. They even used the same components except for the case.

The first bolt action rifles were Win 70 receivers originally made for .30-06 size cartridges but with a spacer at the back of the magazine and a longer bolt stop so the bolt throw would be about half an inch shorter. Barrels in competition were typical 26" long ones tapering from 1.2" at the breech to .900" at the muzzle. Hart made most of them and they all had the same bore and groove diameters that worked best with Sierra's bullets. Both had 1:11 twists. A few people tried using the Rem. 700 short action but it had too many faults to make any realistic comparison between short and long actions with .308 barrels in them. As it turned out, those round ones didn't hold bedding as good as the flat bottom/sides Win 70's did and, along with magazine feed, trigger and extractor problems, the 700's were not popular.

The semiauto version was the M1 with the difference between the old .30-06 parts list, a 7.62 chambered barrel made by Springfield Armory in MA with a slightly larger gas port and a 1:12 twist. It took the M14 shops an extra year or so to work out the details of making them shoot as accurate as the 7.62 Garands, but they finally did it. Both shot more accurate with aftermarket match barrels; almost as accurate as what bolt guns did.

Both the 7.62 NATO and .30-06 peak pressure specs as measured by arsenal copper units of pressure systems were identical; 50,000 cup. What Winchester used for their .308 Win cartridge was a different cup system and therefore had different numbers emerge from it. Otherwise, both cartridges operated at the same peak pressure.

Someone told me years ago that Remington went to 1:10 twists for their .308 chambered barrels because most customers thought that was the best for heavier bullets. Didn't matter that Winchester used 1:12 with great success even with 200-gr. round nose bullets. That does make it cheaper to use the same mandrel for hammer forging the same 1:10 twist 30 caliber barrels for all sorts of cartridges.
 
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Bart, if you will pay closer attention to my post, I mentioned that a lot of the commercial rifles used a 1:12 twist in their 308 chambering. Nothing mentioned about Hart barrels or specialty target rifles. If you care to look at Big Green's current offerings in 308, you will find that more than half of them still give the 1:12 twist barrel to the 308.
I notice that Savage tends to lean toward the 10 twist, but I really don't know when this began with that firm.
Winchester seems to offer the M70 in 308 with a 1:12 twist only.

Not so sure what special CUP rating the 30-06 used to use, but SAAMI spec shows in PSI that the 06 max average pressure is 60K while the 308 is 62K. I chalk that up to some of the older rifles chambered in 06 as compared to the newer steel alloys available in the 1950s
 
David, I noticed what you're reminding me of. My post was put up to explain what detailed and valid reasons were behind the .308's better accuracy than .30-06's when it's preference for accurate cartridges originated.

There's lots of info on the 'net stating the arsenal pressure systems used on military small arms ammo set both the .30-06 and 7.62 NATO round at 50,000 cup. That's still the SAAMI spec for the .30-06, but Winchester's different sytem details for CUP measurements for their .308 Win case were established at 52,000 cup as easily seen on pages 15 and 16 in:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

Read post 4 in the following:

http://www.xcrforum.com/forum/19-308-winchester-7-62-51mm/15720-confused-about-308-7-62-x-51mm.html
 
Agregory, I have no personal experience with the scope your package comes with, but I do have some with the Howa in 30-06. It seems to be a pretty decent, reliable action. They also have a good reputation for accuracy. Feed it decent ammunition and do your part, and I believe you wont be disappointed!
 
instead of ordering the same gun in .308 for $200 more.
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If you are being charged $200 more for the same gun in .308, you are being ripped off, and a fool if you pay it.

From the OP, you are looking at a $450 gun? rifle & scope combination? Sadly, in today's market, that makes it a bargain gun, and while perfectly serviceable for many things, they are never the highest quality, and so not suited for highly specialized things (like long range match shooting).

To make an imperfect analogy, go buy a new Ford economy car (Fusion?), or something similar. Perfectly fine for getting around town or taking a trip, but you won't see any running at Daytona...

The accuracy advantage of the .308 over the .30-06 exists, but its only significant in match rifles and long range shooting. in the field, it is essentially meaningless.

Also the 100fps difference between the two means approximately half an inch difference in drop at 100yds (and the ratio is constant as the distance increases). There is no animal that can tell the difference, and for every guy who thinks the 06 drops 'em faster or kills them deader, there is a guy who thinks the .308 does it better than the 06.

When you are talking about regular sporting rifles any individual rifle (and ammo) in 06 may be more accurate than another individual one in .308, and the opposite is also true.

Remember one of the reasons the military went from 30-06 was because to a certain extent it was it was an over-kill ON HUMANS!
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This sounds sensible, except that the military replaced the 06 with a round that had EXACTLY THE SAME BALLISTICS! There is a whole 10fps (TEN FEET PER SECOND) difference in the specs for GI ball .30-06 and .308 (150gr bullet). There is NO DIFFERENCE between the two.

Where you get the 100fps (200fps maybe, with certain loads) is shooting commercial ammo in civilian rifles.
 
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