30-06 vs .308 for mid to long range?

Thanks guys, it sounds like the small amount of difference between the .308 and 30-06 is small enough for me to buy the 30-06 now instead of ordering the same gun in .308 for $200 more.
 
Personally I think a 30-06 with a match grade barrel (non M1) would do the same as a 308 but out further (if you loaded it up)

With the progressive powders you can get 300 WM capability.

I don't buy there is something inherent better about a 308 vs an 06.

I suspect time moved on, barrels got better and the round was 308, less recoil and more accurate. They now shoot long range stuff with smaller calibers. No one ever tuned the twist in the 30-06 like the 308 (the 1-10 was so versatile overall they left it as is). The 308 got a special twist and if you did the same thing to a 30-06 it would shoot as well (loose some flexibility but tune it for 168-175 with say a 1-11 and it would match the 308 (at least until the recoil got to you!)


What you can't find is a target 30-06 barreled gun, I think it would sell like hot cakes as people that shoot the old military guns would like to have a tac driver to see how good they really are form time to time.

And my step dads father took 5 big grizzlies with his 30-06, it pretty well matches up with 338 and 375 for that task, people just want a bigger boom when they hunt them and all the myths say they should (or course he was not a recreational hunter, he was keeping them away from his cabin)


Plain and simple: marketing
Really, in North America, only two cf cartridges are needed (big griz hunting excepted), the .223 and the 30-06.
It would be boring and gun and ammo manufacturers wouldn't have many options to advertise and sell.
The '06 is great for most long range shooting.
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Thanks guys, it sounds like the small amount of difference between the .308 and 30-06 is small enough for me to buy the 30-06 now instead of ordering the same gun in .308 for $200 more.
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You'll be fine with the '06 while you're getting into long range shooting. There are many rifles chambered in this caliber shooting sub-moa... and honestly that's all you need to get started IMO. I will say that there are several advantages that a .308 has. First off, you can base it off a short action receiver and save some weight/bolt pull. Also, the .308 will do MUCH better out of a shorter barrel than an -06 will. -06 will do best out of a 24" barrel or longer. If you want a lighter, more compact rifle with an 18" or 20" barrel, the .06 would lose almost all of the velocity advantage it has over the .308. .308 is also more inherently accurate than the -06 but I don't think this should be much of a concern if you've never shot past 100 yards.

The -06 has advantages too. It simply pushes heavier bullets faster and better than the .308, especially out of a longer barrel. This can make a pretty significant energy difference.
 
Either will be fine for the kind of shooting you want to do.

I have heard and read raging debates on the topic of 308 vs 30-06. We can discuss the finer technical points all day long but, I think it really comes down to one personal choice: Do you want a short action or a long action?
 
5 whiskey, what commercially available .30-06 rifle will shoot sub MOA at long range, i.e., 600 to 1000 yards? By sub MOA, I mean at the worst, not just an average number. I've not heard of any, but there just might be one.
 
5 whiskey, what commercially available .30-06 rifle will shoot sub MOA at long range, i.e., 600 to 1000 yards? By sub MOA, I mean at the worst, not just an average number.
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Bart, I had a Savage 110 that I paid 330 bucks for that would chuck -06 rounds into 2 inch AVERAGE groups at 300 yards. I'm not saying there was never a group over 3 inches (though I honestly don't remember one), thus killing the sub-moa "perfection," but that was not the norm. If someone wants to "get into shooting" at 500 to 1000 yards, I think an average of slightly under 1 moa is adequate for them to cut their teeth on. Hence, why I suggested that the OP not sweat the caliber so hard. I take it he's not previously been into long range or bench shooting, and is not currently competing. If that is the case, I think he would do better saving $200 bucks and having the rifle in -06 and applying that money to practice rounds downrange. Not everyone that posts here is a bench shooter, or even someone currently capable of doing their part if handed a sub-moa rifle.

I think there are other factors that the OP should weigh that might be way more important than the inherent accuracy of the round... to include rifle weight if he's going to be hunting with it in the highlands, rifle length if he's trudging through heavy brush, length of bolt pull, his ability to handle recoil, and a plethora of other things. .308 wins in most of those categories, which is why I would suggest that if price wasn't an issue. If price is an issue, and he hasn't pulled the trigger very often in the past, then honestly I think he would do better with whatever he can put the most rounds downrange with for the least amount of money (that is still a "competent" rifle).
 
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5whiskey, the more accurate a rifle is at long range, the quicker one will learn the skills and knowledge to shoot well that far away from the target. Otherwise, they won't know if the errors they see were caused by the rifle or ammo or it was their error. And they'll save a lot of money if they start out with a .308 instead of having to replace a lot of stuff later just to switch from .30-06 to .308.

And average group size is typically 1/4 to 1/2 the size of the biggest one shot in the series; the more groups shot the greater the difference. The 600 yard test target for the 1965 .30-06 National Match ammo had an average group size of 3.8 inches; mean radius of 1.9 inches. But it took a circle 11 inches in diameter to encompass all 270 shots fired in a barreled M1903A3 barred action from a Mann rest. That ammo shot about 30 inches at 1000 yards from the most accurate match quality Garands. The 1000-yard target's high scoring ring was 36 inches back then. Today, it's only 20.
 
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You should also state how many shots are in the group.

I have shot a lot of sub 1 MOA 3 shot groups with a hunting rifle, then tried 5 and it would open up to 1.5 or 2 inches.

My take is that 3 shot groups are fine for hunting and anything 1.5 inches or less is good (my 7mm on its best day shot 1.5 inches and upwards of 2 inches normally).

Target shooting I believe 5 shots are the minimum. And you don't throw out flyers unless you know you jerked it (and then you shoot 6th shot to prove it!)

I have seen write ups that they wold not tell you how many shots in a group though you sometimes could find out by diligent reading of the article.

If they are going to claim sub MOA then it better be 5 shot groups or clearly stated it was 3 shots and its a hunting rifle accuracy level.
 
The size of a 20-shot group has about an 80% chance of representing where all shots will go. 30 shot ones are 90% or so what they'll all do. 5-shot ones, about 50%.

Check out the IBS and NBRSA benchrest sites then look at their records pages. Note the aggregate group records for at least 5 group agg's remembering some groups are much larger than the agg record states. Ranges 200 yards and greater use MOA values so they're easily comparable to those at 100 yards. Those agg averages are a lot bigger than 5-shot single group ones.
 
RC20, IN BR NBRSA/IBS short yardage 100,200 and 300yds, the 200yd and 300 yds is converted to MOA but it's in inches and reason for that. You may have same shooter in the Sporter,Light,Heavy and Unlimited division. In each division you could win these way also

Grand agg 5 shots-5 targets @ 100yd & 200yd each div

Grand agg 5 shots-5 targets @ 200yd & 300yd each div

Grand agg 5 shots-5 targets @ 100yd,200yd and 300yd each div

Grand Agg for these Unlimited are little different from above

5 targets- 10 shots @ 100yd & 200yd

8 targets- 10 shots @ 100yd & 200yd

5 targets- 5 shots @ 200yd & 300yd

5 targets-10 shots @ 100yd,200yd and 300yd.

They convert to .00000" it's a good system and most will shoot more than one division myself I shot light/heavy and I could also shoot either rifle in Unlimited.

Also above matches your not shooting 308or 30-06.
 
This question comes up a lot.
In response I've been trying to direct people to this article

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/09/10/ga-perspectives-does-the-308-fit-the-long-range-hunting-bill/

Read it and you'll read about the short comings of the 308.
Personally I think the 308 is fine for most game up to 400 yards.

Download the ballistics calculator that Federal has and you'll see that the
308 is down to about 1800 fps and 1500 lbs/f energy which is about minimum
it needed for a reliable expansion of most rifle rounds.

What I like about the 308 vs 30-06 is the slightly milder recoil of the and
308 and what I like about the 30-06 is the amazing selection of bullets and
if you do your job it gives a quick kill for 99% of game in N-America.

Ideally just get both.
 
"Why isn't the .06 more popular for long-range shooting?
It's less consistent (because the case is the same dia., but longer) in pressure and velocity... not a lot, but enough to make a difference in precision shooting."


This has not been my experience. I've not noticed any difference in accuracy between the two.
I happen to have the same rifle in both calibers and they shoot the same.
 
"Personally I think a 30-06 with a match grade barrel (non M1) would do the same as a 308 but out further (if you loaded it up)
With the progressive powders you can get 300 WM capability.
I don't buy there is something inherent better about a 308 vs an 06."


Bingo!!!
This is exactly what I have experienced and like I said above I have the same rifle in both calibers.
I don't buy the 308 is more accurate argument at all.
I will however say deer, boar, elk, moose and many others all seem to drop down
significantly faster with the 30-06.
 
What???? Dropping significantly faster?:eek: That doesn't add up at all. Unless the bullets were significantly different between calibers, there is nothing even tangibly different in killing power.


I will however say deer, boar, elk, moose and many others all seem to drop down
significantly faster with the 30-06.
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The discussion/argument/whatever of .308 vs .30-06 has always bugged me. I know there are those who like each in its own right. But get a talk going about .223 vs .22-250, and most want the .22-250 for the added power/range. This to kill a "dog" that often weighs less than 40#... If we are so concerned about an ethical kill on a predator, why would a whitetail/mulie/pronghorn/whatever deserve any less consideration. I don't dispute the .308's ability, but between it and the '06, I'll take the '06 any day.
 
When you shoot in a match that only 308 is allowed for what 30yrs it's pretty simple to say 308 is the most accurate.

I could see NRA going to the 308 for those matches since other countries have a say on what's being used. When the 30-06 was dropped if it was only for accuracy why didn't the retest the classification system given using the 30-06. Same when they changed target size.

NRA is a score shoot also classification system but it's not perfect in that once you get to High Master you never have to shoot to that level again. Maybe that's one reason they never retested.

Besides winning they give classification awards

http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/natpdf/cp500-13.pdf
 
"What???? Dropping significantly faster? That doesn't add up at all. Unless the bullets were significantly different between calibers, there is nothing even tangibly different in killing power."


Why don't you download the Federal ballistics calculator and you'll see what I mean if you don't believe me.
I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved in this conversation.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/ballistic_app.aspx

In either case Yes, what I've noticed over the years is that animals seem to drop faster with the 30-06 than a 308. Could all be just a coincidence but it seems to be a pretty definite pattern.
 
I have been looking at buying a new Howa Game king scoped package from Rural King, but the suckers can't order me a .308. I was wondering if the 30-06 version that every Rural king I have called has in stock for $450 would be a good compromise.
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In complying with the OP's question and not staying focused._:o

Simply said:
Some fellows prefer a Long action pull others prefer a Short action pull. But the velocity of the 30-06 does have an edge over the 308 in a bolt rifle. Not much of an edge but 200 fps on average is still a edge. If you were intending to buy a Semi-Auto rifle I would suggest purchasing the 308 for that application. Under this circumstance and the shooting distance you have in mind. Either cartridge would do reasonably well.
FWIW: Here's my suggestion. Buy the rifle in the caliber you really want. Don't settle for less or for another caliber because of its availability. Consider asking Rural King's store manager or assistant manager or whom ever handles the gun counter to special order your rifle {if its possible.} It may require a down payment from you for them to accommodate your request. But you will eventually get the rifle you want. Best of luck to you and your new rifle purchase.

After re-reading this thread. I see Rural King can't special order a rifle for you. Found in that situation perhaps you need to call around and see who does have that rifle package in the caliber you want. Prices between the store may differ a little. But you would be getting the rifle you want even having to purchase it some where's else.
(I think the problem your Rural King store may be having is the rifle offering in its scope package may not be available from his distributor any longer.)
 
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Buy the rifle in the caliber you really want. Don't settle for less or for another caliber because of its availability.
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This is so true. You will spend more in the long run trying to justify a "good enough" purchase. Buying the caliber in the rifle you want will be more satisfying and you wont wonder about what might have been. Even saving up longer is the way to go.
 
Some fellows prefer a Long action pull others prefer a Short action pull.
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Long action tends to be smoother than short. Not always just tends that way.



But the velocity of the 30-06 does have an edge over the 308 in a bolt rifle. Not much of an edge but 200 fps on average is still a edge.
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Actually 200 fps is a huge difference.
If you know your kinetic energy formula (1/2 mv^2) you can see that velocity is squared.
So 200 fps delivers considerably more kinetic energy.

Remember one of the reasons the military went from 30-06 was because to a certain extent it was it was an over-kill ON HUMANS!

So you go from something being an over-kill on humans to being perfect on mid to large size game.
Add to that the intense amount of bullet selections and before you know it you'll be shopping for a 30-06. :)
 
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