3 explosions,3 mfgs.guns,in 40S&W

3 explosions,3mfgs.guns,in 40 S&W

You are correct fellow shooters the .40 is a high intensity cartridge. I do not believe it has the same margin of safety as the 9mm. I have seen people deliberately shoot ammo out of 9mm handguns that had bullet set back especially when using commercial Winchester 9mm cases. The guns in 9mm did not blow up but often the cases were swelled up so severely that they would not go back into the shell holder to be reloaded. Winchester cases seem to have ultra thin case walls and will not hold many jacketed bullets (also lead bullets) unless the sizer die is matched to the Winchester case. This often means a trip for the die back to the factory where it is replaced with a tighter sizing die. I have also went through this with other calibers like the .45 acp long ago.
I have also thought a lot about the newer auto pistols and how in order to save money they have done away with the locking lugs on the barrel and have instead headspaced them by using only the barrel hood. John Browning was well aware that this could be done. He himself used the barrel hood on the .45 and the High Power as a third safety lug. But his philosphy was to make the gun twice as strong as it needed to be. I have often wondered how safe some of these new plastic pistols and high tech sheet metal pistols really are because of their lack of locking groves on the barrel and in the slide. I wonder how much of this new design often contributes to blow ups. W.R.
 
3 explosions,3mfgs.guns,in 40 S&W

Arub, It has not just been three handguns. I have been reading many threads on many web sites for the last 6 months and their have been many, many glocks blowing up in .40 caliber. No one seemes to know why. This is the first article in a gun magazine that I have read that is exploring this problem with the .40 and all of the recent blow ups.
It also seems so unusual that so many of the guns that first were brought out in .40 all had various problems including functioning, premature wear out, cracked frames and slides. I guess that I will have to agree with the others when they state that the .40 should have been designed around a .45 acp frame rather than a more compact and lighter frame 9mm type weapon. In other words the factories should have never attempted to soup up the 9mm by rechambering them for the .40. W.R.
 
3 explosions,3mfgs.guns,in 40 S&W

Mike Irwin. I have posted this a couple of days ago but to briefly summarize on the demise of the classic High Power. FN had to go to a cheap cast steel frame that was extremely hard when they created the .40 High Power. They wanted the price of the new gun to remain competitive with other pistols. A classic forged frame would have boosted the price of the pistol somewhat higher but the idiots did not realize people who buy high powers bought them for the cadillac quality, they were not then or now looking for a cheap tupperwear or high tech sheet metal type pistol. They wanted class. They wanted a royal blued work of art. Not just a modern shooting machine, they wanted pride in ownership. Something the new wave of younger shooters know little or nothing about because they have never owned a really first class pistol and if they did they would not really understand it or know what to make of this strange old fashion creation of hand fitted , forged steel.
FN also installed cheap cast parts in the new High Power as in the most critical part the guns sear. Extra heavy springs were also installed because of the .40's recoil. After FN. got through with their new Frankenstienian creation the bulk of the older high power owners who knew the difference beteween a really first class firearm and cast iron piece of junk were all ready to vomit. Some of them like me still are vomiting over this.
That about sums it up. Modern pistols do have their place , they are cheap to produce , light to carry, and if they become covered with rust who cares they are only shooting machines not works of art. If I had the formula for the Atom bomb I would blow all the modern pistols up and rid the world of their cancerous sore.
The High Power was the first Hangun I ever got my young hands on and years later when I was legally old enough it was the first handgun I purchased. After purchasing that and a 1911 I should have quit years ago while I was still financially ahead. Nothing I bought after that ever came close to either of them in engineering or quality. W.R.
 
3 explosions,3mfgs.guns,in 40 S&W

Well that was not 100% accurate. A month ago I did buy a Sig Neuhausen P10. Miracles do happen once in awhile. It turned out to be everything I expected that it would and more. W.R.
 
I read the article last night. It seems that overpressure handloads were confirmed or suspected in all cases. It also stated that the problem with Glock .40s was most common with handloads. So, properly, your topic heading should have included handloads as THE key issue. But, given your bias towards the .40, you didn't include that.
 
Hey Wild, You seem to know a lot about the HP's. I have to look back in some threads I printed out a few years ago regarding the frames on the HP 40 but it seems like early on the 40's were made with forged frames. Do you think that is correct? I do agree with you that the older Hp's are truely a work of art. I have one but I do still like my 40.
 
Wild Romanian - this is a technical forum moderator question. (Since your email is not published, I have to ask this way.) Are you not able to edit your posts by using the edit button? I've noticed a few times where you follow up one of your posts with a correction post when you could have edited the original post instead.
 
Since buzz brought it up, I will once again ask the question that hasn't been answered yet, AFAIK.

How, after the fact, can it be confirmed that a KB was caused by an overpressure handload, rather than by a myriad of other potential causes?

Anyone?
 
Tax, this is what I referred to in an earlier post. Think of all the law enforcement agencies (State, City and Federal) that use 40 cal guns and 40 cal Glocks in particular. Combined they likely shoot milliions of rounds. While some have gone away from the Glock because it's harder to shoot accuratly or the 40 recoils too much for gun shy recruits, I'm unaware of a single agency dropping the Glock (or any 40) because it blows up.

What is the difference between the millions of rounds fired by these agencies without KB's and the rounds being fired by the public (which is claimed is getting KB 's)? The only difference is the public uses handloads and LE agencies don't, end of story.

In fact if bullet set back were such a sensitive issue LEO's should be having more trouble not less due to thier constant loading chambering, unchambering, rechambering of the same rounds, which does cause bullet setback to some extent.

Till the FBI, multiple Highway Patrol units etc. guns start blowing up I'll continue to use my Glock 23 with (eeek!!!) 180 grain bullets without a worry in the world.

Regards, Blueduck
 
Tax, the Browning's owner (an IPSC shooter) confirmed it was a handload. As for the rest, this was Bill Laughridge's (hope I got the name right) opinion, since the article dealt with his views on modifications and crappy lawyer tactics.

As for how to determine if it was a handload versus other problems, that's what experts get paid for. You can't always do it, and experts will often disagree, but based on the way damage occurs, you can often tell what happened.
 
Wild,

Welcome to the growing trend in the firearms (and every) industry, the attempt to keep a handle on costs while providing a familiar product.

Colt has done it (plastic triggers & mainspring housings, anyone?)

Ruger has done it.

Taurus, etc., etc., etc., have done it.

Do I really like it?

Nope, so I'll agree with you on that front.

Do I appreciate the fact that I can still purchase a handgun for less than $1,000?

You bet your sweet bippy.

I know people who are still screaming about S&W changing their adjustable sights from machined to stamped, and that happened nearly 60 years ago.

At least there's quite a few older guns on the market.
 
food for thought...

The HK USP was originally DESIGNED for the .40s&w, and then adapted to also shoot 9mm. Does anyone have data on an H&K USP 40 ever going kaboom? If so, please try and state whether handload or factory ammo.

If HK's don't KaBoom, then it must indeed be what BDBrad says... it's the 9mm pistol being redesigned to handle the .40, rather than the round itself.
 
Anybody remember ".38 super face"? (For you "young 'uns: it was a "k-B" before your time) Lots of guys have blown up lots of guns. In the early days of combat pistol competition and IPSC I personally witnessed several. Nowdays, there is a tremendous amount of communication involved in the world of firearms. There are many, many "gun magazines" out there. Plus you have the "internet". What was once an isolated event at your local range, now suddenly becomes nationwide news because of this. The sheer number of those involved with all aspects of handguns has increased. It would seem to me that there's bound be an increase in "accidents"...as well as acts of sheer stupidity. Stay safe.
 
I think the problem is probably a combination of bad gun engineering and bad ammo engineering. Let me explain, the 10mm was originally designed to use a 180gr or 200gr bullet for optimum performance (Factory Ammo). Now lets, basically cut the case in half and keep the same powder charge and bullet weight. What did we just do reloaders.....? increased the pressure in the case considerably. Now we have a really high pressure round that's abusive to shoot and we are going to place it in a chamber that doesn't fully support the case . Makes sense huh, sounds like something S&W would do :rolleyes:.

I love .40 cal round and my solution as a reloader it to load 165 gr or lower bullets, scrutinize every case for exansion, stick with in SAAMI regulations and finally use only guns made and designed to shoot .40s that have fully supported chambers.
 
It also seems so unusual that so many of the guns that first were brought out in .40 all had various problems including functioning, premature wear out, cracked frames and slides.
Click to expand...

Right, and none of the original .45s or 9mms ever had any problems with functioning, premature wear, cracks, etc. Is that the point you're trying to make?

I'll assume from that statement that all .45s and 9mms functioned perfectly from the moment they created.

BS

Shake
 
Posted by sensop:
Obviously, if you have one it can't be a bad idea. :rolleyes:



sensop, I'm not saying the .40 is not a bad idea because "I" have one. Although I have owned a few, currently I don't even own a .40. And, I was not disrespecting the .45 or .357 magnum. I was being sarcastic in my post. My point is that just because a gun breaks does not mean a particular round is a "bad idea" which is what a few posters seemed to be saying. I've seen a few broken guns of different calibers and in both the cases I pointed out, factory ammo was used. There are many factors that could determine why a gun breaks. And breaking doesn't necessarily make a certain round a bad idea.
 
The factory stupidly loaded the 38 super and 40 SW to thier potential

We Americans (for those of us who are) are known for loving big powerfull things, guns included. But do you ever notice our propensity for building powerfull rounds then watering them down with weak loads: 10mm , 357 magnum and 30-06 etc.

My theory is the main problem comes when Jo Blow handloader who thinks of himself as something of an evil genius for figuring out a few more grains of powder will get him an extra 100-200 with his 9mm,357, or 45acp tries the same thing with a load that comes from the factory, not downloaded like the previous rounds but actually loaded as hot they should be straight from the plant like the 40 is today and the 38 super of yesterday. He might even just be trying to duplicate factory velocities but using the wrong powder, primer etc he's just used to larger safety margin.

Well Jo Blow, KB's his gun, whats he gonna do, tell everybody including the company "Wow I did exactly what everbody in the world told me not to do! It's all my fault you don't owe me a new gun or any money for my powder burns at all because I'm just not that bright" Not likely.

If I start seeing the velocities of factory 40SW drop by 100 to 150 fps all the sudden just to appease the ego's of these bozo's I will be very, very:mad:
 
I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought I was.

Determining If it was a handload should be a no brainer. I have experienced a KB in a 9mm Glock (search the archives for the story). It was a handload. That's easy. No for the hard part. Was it a double charge, overpressure but not double charge, weak brass, unsupported chamber, firing out of battery, bullet setback, bullet originally seated too deep, or maybe a combination of these factors????

In my KB, a number of folks who ought to know attributed it to weak brass. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But I ask the question again.

How, after the fact, can the cause be determined?
 
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