.243 vs 6.5 Creedmoor for Whitetail and General Hunting
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globemaster3
New member
Folks, its been over 2 months since OP posed the question, and they have not returned for comment or fire adjustment.
Don Fischer
New member
I've never shot one but have an idea one of the best cartridges, no one chamber's for anymore. 250/3000. I saw the 6.5 Grindal brought up and few post back the 257 Robert's. Well there's not a lot of them left around and may be that ammo is hard to come by for a non handloader. Yep, think I'd consider the 250/3000, and then I'd get one of the small, 260, 6.5 CM, 6.5 cartridges. Had a 6.5x55 put together for the ex and she gave up shooting a 6mm to shoot it!
jackstrawIII
New member
This is wisdom. I own a lot of rifles, and I'm always handing them to my wife and asking her what she thinks and if she'd be comfortable using it. Keep in mind she's not a big shooter. I've been VERY surprised many times by her reactions. Guns that I swear she'll like, she doesn't feel comfortable with.
Her favorite rifle so far, CZ 527 in 7.62x39. That's what she'll be hunting with next year, barring some unforeseen change.
You don't mention anything about the hunting other than it is deer. You said that the biggest concern is getting your girlfriend a smaller, lighter rifle that recoils less than a .308 semiauto.
There is a whole lot of real estate covered by that, anything from 7mm-08 down to .223, all capable of killing deer sized game. Maybe even a twenty gauge with slugs.
I see no reason to move up to 6.5 from .243 unless you're shooting at longer ranges and require better ballistics.
By going with a creedmoor you will be using a bullet that is thirty grains heavier than a 100 grain .243 and maybe 100 fps quicker. At this time, actually, the trend of .243 is going towards sub 100 grain bullets that retain all weight, either bonded, monolithic copper, or others that ensure full penetration without adding extra bullet weight.
A creedmoor is obviously a superior round ballistically, by the figures, but is it actually better? the winchester is an excellent low recoil round, and that is the thing you are looking for. you should consider keeping the .243 with 90 grain bullet at 3,200 fps.
compare the nosler trophy grade e tip, a solid copper tipped bullet perfect for deer or larger game..
Creeedmoor:
120 grain bullet, 2,850 fps, 2,174 Foot Pounds ME
.243 winchester:
90 grain bullet, 3,200 fps, 2,046 Foot Pounds ME
Big differences. Given the parameters of average sized deer at less than 300 yards with a recoil shy hunter, I have no choice but to to with the .243 winchester. It will have marginally lower recoil, I believe. It will have nearly identical energy on target, it will have nearly identical trajectories, and the effects of the identical bullet loadings will be almost identical as well.
There is a whole lot of real estate covered by that, anything from 7mm-08 down to .223, all capable of killing deer sized game. Maybe even a twenty gauge with slugs.
I see no reason to move up to 6.5 from .243 unless you're shooting at longer ranges and require better ballistics.
By going with a creedmoor you will be using a bullet that is thirty grains heavier than a 100 grain .243 and maybe 100 fps quicker. At this time, actually, the trend of .243 is going towards sub 100 grain bullets that retain all weight, either bonded, monolithic copper, or others that ensure full penetration without adding extra bullet weight.
A creedmoor is obviously a superior round ballistically, by the figures, but is it actually better? the winchester is an excellent low recoil round, and that is the thing you are looking for. you should consider keeping the .243 with 90 grain bullet at 3,200 fps.
compare the nosler trophy grade e tip, a solid copper tipped bullet perfect for deer or larger game..
Creeedmoor:
120 grain bullet, 2,850 fps, 2,174 Foot Pounds ME
.243 winchester:
90 grain bullet, 3,200 fps, 2,046 Foot Pounds ME
Big differences. Given the parameters of average sized deer at less than 300 yards with a recoil shy hunter, I have no choice but to to with the .243 winchester. It will have marginally lower recoil, I believe. It will have nearly identical energy on target, it will have nearly identical trajectories, and the effects of the identical bullet loadings will be almost identical as well.
Whistlebritches
New member
I'd skip the 243,forego the 6.5 and jump in somewhere in the 257 field.......25-06 fan myself.
Semi-auto helps.
Stock fit/sight height matters.
Weight of the gun matters (heavy mitigates recoil).
Shooter's form matters.
The shooter's mindset matters ..... if they believe the gun is going to smack them, their form will go to crap and the gun will smack them.
I had a recoil sensitive hunter that was afraid of anything bigger than an AR ...... she had taken a small button buck 2 years ago with an AR loaded with Barnes TSX's .... small deer, broadside at 130 yards ..... perfect heart/lung shot and then last year hit several larger deer that we could not find .... I built a PSA PA-10 in .308WIN ..... she's 13, tall and skinny ....weighs under 100 lbs. ..... there's pics in another thread here .... https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php? t=591992&page=2
.... but what is discussed over there would be pertinent here, I think. There are PA-10 uppers in 6.5CM and I've seen barrels in 7-08 ..... there are other AR10 platforms that offer .243WIN, as well.
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Whistlebritches
New member
I shoot either 117 gr SST's or BTSP's over 50 grains of IMR 4831 in a Browning A-Bolt.I watch the animals hit reaction through the scope.So either you know squat about the 25-06 or ........well there is no or,you know squat about the recoil of a 25-06.That round doesn't even come close to being the low recoil round that he is looking for. Why do you think that will work?
As he loads it (midrange charge- ~2800 f/sec - think .257AI ) it's going to have less recoil than a similar boltgun with a factory 6.5CM loading .... but more than a similar .243 ..... none of those, in a sporter weight bolt gun are going to have less recoil than a 8 to 9 pound AR-10 with a rifle length buffer in whatever caliber, be it .308, 7-08, 6.5CM, or .243 ....
The OP said nothing about a semi-auto .... to whom were you referring to, briandg?
rodwhaincamo
New member
Not many slight women who would be recoil sensitive will want to deal with a heavy rifle outside of a blind. Maybe I missed this part but I don't recall the hunting situation mentioned.
When I searched for my first muzzleloading rifle I wanted something that would cover most bases. Something I could hunt from a fixed position or stalk with. Heavy was not something I looked for in my rifle. But then weight wouldn't be an issue if it were only a blind hunting rifle. I'm not a big guy whatsoever but I require a manageable rifle assuming I may have to carry some meat for miles. A heavy rifle isn't what I'd want. Granted I doubt he'll have her do the work I'd possibly have to weight is still a point of contention possibly. Of course I'll have to reread the whole thing now...
When I searched for my first muzzleloading rifle I wanted something that would cover most bases. Something I could hunt from a fixed position or stalk with. Heavy was not something I looked for in my rifle. But then weight wouldn't be an issue if it were only a blind hunting rifle. I'm not a big guy whatsoever but I require a manageable rifle assuming I may have to carry some meat for miles. A heavy rifle isn't what I'd want. Granted I doubt he'll have her do the work I'd possibly have to weight is still a point of contention possibly. Of course I'll have to reread the whole thing now...
TANSTAAFL. I don't think the OP said how they hunted .... We hunt out of blinds, overlooking good sized fields bordered by tree lined creeks, for the most part .... sometimes the more spry will do a push for the old and the very young ..... but that's the way I solved my issue - and I gave my reasoning. I chimed in because I have some experience with recoil sensitive hunters (little kids aged 10-14), and I doubted anybody could be smaller framed than my 13 year old daughter, or more recoil sensitive ...... not because I am a fanboy of a particular caliber ..... there are other answers that have worked for me in the past, including making reduced recoil .270WIN and 7-08 loads .... Eldest daughter uses and 8 pound Marlin 30-A .... and has since she was 11 .... works for her, but is a PITA to reload for and limits her range .... she could use a bigger gun (she's set to Commission as Marine Officer in spring) but likes her gun. I'm short on time right now , but will give particulars on the other kids' gun solutions I've done, later.
Jimbob, I made a mistake when I read that first post, he wrote 700, I was on my kindle and apparently read that as 7400, a semiauto commonly chambered in .308.
If the 117 grain round in a .25-06 is taken down to .257 roberts ranges, or 2,800, yep, it will be closer to the recoil range of a .243 factory ammo. Factory? not even close.
You shouldn't compare the ballistics of specially formulated handloads to factory loads unless handload suggestions were requested, should you?
If the 117 grain round in a .25-06 is taken down to .257 roberts ranges, or 2,800, yep, it will be closer to the recoil range of a .243 factory ammo. Factory? not even close.
You shouldn't compare the ballistics of specially formulated handloads to factory loads unless handload suggestions were requested, should you?
We all make mistakes, bri .....it 's the rare guy that owns it.
Thanks.
And Whistle's downloading of his 25-06 touches on my solution for some of my other kids' ballistic equipment solutions- I had less money for the second kid interested.... Did some shuffling and had the Eldest hand off her 30/30, and I downloaded my 10 lb. 270 win to 2700 f/sec with a130 gr bullet ..... She killed deer with it .... While the new hunter found that she just did not have the killer instinct .... Several opportunities, but just couldn't pull the trigger..... Just not in her..... She still goes shooting, still likes to go along hunting, but just lacks the killer instinct ..... and that's OK ......
.... Three years later, I had a bit more money on hand, and my son (then 11) wanted to hunt ..... I had picked up a Ruger Frontier in 7-08 (for those not familiar with it, it was Ruger's first stab at a Scout type carbine - 16 inch barreled M77 with a compact sized synthetic stock -still pretty heavy, but short enough that small kids could manage it) ....... I worked up a reduced load with IMR 4064 that lost about 150 f/sec compared to factory loads, but with so much less muzzle blast and recoil that even I preferred it ..... It killed deer, still does. More importantly, The Boy loves it. He's near 6 feet tall now, and still claims that gun is "his" .... Somehow I don't recall him forking over the Benjamin's for it...... Maybe I'll gift it to him if he keeps hunting ..... Anyhow ..... I think that if I put a suppressor on it, it could not be beat in the "Little Kids' Deer Rifle" category: Light, Short(ish) heavy enough to mitigate even the mild recoil of a 139gr bullet launched at 2500 f/sec, further mitigated by the can ...... And the report of a 22 mag..... Given efficient bullets, it's a no recoil 300 yard gun, if the shooter is up to it.........
Which brings us to the Last Child ..... She killed her first deer (as I detailed earlier) in 2015 with my AR .... I was not broke, and was prepared to buy another Frontier, or even a GSR ..... But she liked shooting the AR ..... As some of the posters have alluded to..... "Let her choose..." There is some truth to that: people tend to believe in their choices..... Become invested in them, if you will..... Witness the Legions of Fanboys that wage cyber war in favor of their choice and against all others (I've been guilty of this...sorry, live and learn ..... Which is exactly why I am spending the time to share all of this ..... The School of Hard Knocks is THE most expensive way to figure stuff out, ESPECIALLY in this, The Age of Information and Marketing ..... I ain't sellin' nothin', Just advocating for getting more kids (and women, because they are the biggest influences on little kids) into the field .... But I digress ..... back to the Last Child) She liked the AR ....but 2016 laid bare the inadequacy of the 5.56, even when loaded with really good bullets loaded to their max potential and good placement .... Small deer, perfect angles at under 100 yards? One or more of these things iffy or just not.. .... Maybe.....maybe Not .... But all else being equal, more is better ..... I built the PA-10 and it looked similar, if bigger (but she was bigger than she was 2 years prior, too ) ....so it was familiar .... I've always taught good form and fundamentals (ball and dummy drill with a major caliber center fire rifle is the Gold Standard test for good form and fundamentals w/ regard to recoil management) ..... I zeroed it .... She shot some paper to confirm .... And then lots of water bottles and milk jugs at different distances (instant feedback is a plus with kids) .... A couple hundred rounds ..... It worked pretty well...
Are these the "Right Answers"? I don't know..... but they were my answers at the time .... Some worked, some didn't .... But I'm sharing so maybe you can learn something ..... Not because I think that the 270WIN is "the BEST cartridge EVAR ".... Or to say that you should learn to hand load ( you should!) .... But I think that is what gun forums were supposed to be for: gun folks sharing gun information .... As always, Your mileage may Vary- it's your bus and your road and your foot on the pedal ...... Enjoy your ride.....
Thanks.
And Whistle's downloading of his 25-06 touches on my solution for some of my other kids' ballistic equipment solutions- I had less money for the second kid interested.... Did some shuffling and had the Eldest hand off her 30/30, and I downloaded my 10 lb. 270 win to 2700 f/sec with a130 gr bullet ..... She killed deer with it .... While the new hunter found that she just did not have the killer instinct .... Several opportunities, but just couldn't pull the trigger..... Just not in her..... She still goes shooting, still likes to go along hunting, but just lacks the killer instinct ..... and that's OK ......
.... Three years later, I had a bit more money on hand, and my son (then 11) wanted to hunt ..... I had picked up a Ruger Frontier in 7-08 (for those not familiar with it, it was Ruger's first stab at a Scout type carbine - 16 inch barreled M77 with a compact sized synthetic stock -still pretty heavy, but short enough that small kids could manage it) ....... I worked up a reduced load with IMR 4064 that lost about 150 f/sec compared to factory loads, but with so much less muzzle blast and recoil that even I preferred it ..... It killed deer, still does. More importantly, The Boy loves it. He's near 6 feet tall now, and still claims that gun is "his" .... Somehow I don't recall him forking over the Benjamin's for it...... Maybe I'll gift it to him if he keeps hunting ..... Anyhow ..... I think that if I put a suppressor on it, it could not be beat in the "Little Kids' Deer Rifle" category: Light, Short(ish) heavy enough to mitigate even the mild recoil of a 139gr bullet launched at 2500 f/sec, further mitigated by the can ...... And the report of a 22 mag..... Given efficient bullets, it's a no recoil 300 yard gun, if the shooter is up to it.........
Which brings us to the Last Child ..... She killed her first deer (as I detailed earlier) in 2015 with my AR .... I was not broke, and was prepared to buy another Frontier, or even a GSR ..... But she liked shooting the AR ..... As some of the posters have alluded to..... "Let her choose..." There is some truth to that: people tend to believe in their choices..... Become invested in them, if you will..... Witness the Legions of Fanboys that wage cyber war in favor of their choice and against all others (I've been guilty of this...sorry, live and learn ..... Which is exactly why I am spending the time to share all of this ..... The School of Hard Knocks is THE most expensive way to figure stuff out, ESPECIALLY in this, The Age of Information and Marketing ..... I ain't sellin' nothin', Just advocating for getting more kids (and women, because they are the biggest influences on little kids) into the field .... But I digress ..... back to the Last Child) She liked the AR ....but 2016 laid bare the inadequacy of the 5.56, even when loaded with really good bullets loaded to their max potential and good placement .... Small deer, perfect angles at under 100 yards? One or more of these things iffy or just not.. .... Maybe.....maybe Not .... But all else being equal, more is better ..... I built the PA-10 and it looked similar, if bigger (but she was bigger than she was 2 years prior, too ) ....so it was familiar .... I've always taught good form and fundamentals (ball and dummy drill with a major caliber center fire rifle is the Gold Standard test for good form and fundamentals w/ regard to recoil management) ..... I zeroed it .... She shot some paper to confirm .... And then lots of water bottles and milk jugs at different distances (instant feedback is a plus with kids) .... A couple hundred rounds ..... It worked pretty well...
Are these the "Right Answers"? I don't know..... but they were my answers at the time .... Some worked, some didn't .... But I'm sharing so maybe you can learn something ..... Not because I think that the 270WIN is "the BEST cartridge EVAR ".... Or to say that you should learn to hand load ( you should!) .... But I think that is what gun forums were supposed to be for: gun folks sharing gun information .... As always, Your mileage may Vary- it's your bus and your road and your foot on the pedal ...... Enjoy your ride.....
Whistlebritches
New member
Actually my 25-06 load is not downloaded.........just where I found optimum accuracy.I've chrono'd this load at 3020~3045fps out of that same Browning A~Bolt.I find it intriguing that anyone would find this combo heavy in the recoil department.I'll admit I have little experience with the 243.My pet load in that Browning is a joy to shoot compared to my 6 lb sporter in 308 chocked full of pork pills(180 grainers)or my old Glenfield 30A in 30~30 stuffed with 170's.I've never seen any animals reaction to a solid hit through the scope of either of these rifles I assure you.
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It's a magic gun! Consider yourself very blessed that you get faster than book velocity and it still prints well ...... and never sell it...... it's unlikely you'll find that again in any gun.
Try 150's in the 30A .... and use a low power scout scope, both eyes open...... the gun is heavy, the load is light, and the scope all but disappears when you mount the gun to target ..... the crosshairs appear on target and you'll never miss a thing....
Whistlebritches
New member
My Browning A~Bolt is 25-26 years old and the most accurate sporter I have ever owned.This why I have held onto it all these years.My book shows 53.0 grains in the 3150 fps range......so why would 50 grains at just over 3000 fps be out of the ordinary?Regardless it's been working for me a long time......I'll stick with it.
As for the 150's in the 30-30......it does like Remington core-lokt 150's.Other than that I have always pumped 170's through her with excellent results.........pigs die in their tracks usually
I've noticed that most centerfire rounds bigger than a hornet can and will swat almost any critter down if it is hit right. If that means a brain shot at fifty yards or a butt shot at a thousand with a bmg the key is choosing the combination of rifle and round that fit the shooter, the shot, the game. Anyone can play the game of "Elwood Atwood shot a moose with it" and carry that hornet to make brain shots on pronghorns. It's the responsibility of every shooter to know the limitations and capabilities of their hunting piece or defensive piece and not play silly games with themselves.
It makes for a good story when a giant African warthog is lobotomized with a load of number nine shot, over the shoulder with a mirror, but so is Cinderella.
Let a kid or anyone else carry what feels right and is appropriate for the hunt.
I'm glad that I started out with a .243, I was a bony little guy, and even that gave me broken veins in my shoulder after forty or so rounds. I'm glad that I didn't start out with the 30-06 that I shoot know.
Whatever it takes, I believe that reducing the beating that a person takes when shooting can be the most important issue for effective training.
Isn't it odd that most of this discussion has been about getting different cartridges, rather than adding a recoil pad and a set of sound cancelling ear plugs? After a few days of thinking about this thread I feel kind of stupid for not suggesting it in the beginning. It's a whole lot cheaper than a new rifle.
It makes for a good story when a giant African warthog is lobotomized with a load of number nine shot, over the shoulder with a mirror, but so is Cinderella.
Let a kid or anyone else carry what feels right and is appropriate for the hunt.
I'm glad that I started out with a .243, I was a bony little guy, and even that gave me broken veins in my shoulder after forty or so rounds. I'm glad that I didn't start out with the 30-06 that I shoot know.
Whatever it takes, I believe that reducing the beating that a person takes when shooting can be the most important issue for effective training.
Isn't it odd that most of this discussion has been about getting different cartridges, rather than adding a recoil pad and a set of sound cancelling ear plugs? After a few days of thinking about this thread I feel kind of stupid for not suggesting it in the beginning. It's a whole lot cheaper than a new rifle.