22lr handgun for self defense?

A .22LR can indeed kill people, and I imagine it would fend off less motivated attackers like some carjackers, muggers or burglars who just aren't signed up mentally for a potentially deadly fight... but if you have someone who is enraged and means to kill you come what may, you may be toast.

There is literally endless arguing on this topic, but most people will agree that the minimum would be .38+P in revolver and 9mm in semiauto handgun cartridges chosen for defense. This is a grey area, and there is nothing magic about those, but they are strong enough that most shooters consider them adequate.
 
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Also depends on the range involved. IMHO a 22LR/Magnum for self defense falls into Charlie Askins' definition of the belly gun-"You stick it against your opponent's belly and pull the trigger!"
 
i carry a 22 pug everywhere i go. i am a good shot and its 100% bullet placement. I have a 45 but i cant carry it in my shorts. no gun or 22 not rocket science.
 
IMO, any gun is better than no gun. I have seen people hit with several rounds of 5.56 and continued their attack only to be stopped by additional hits. I would guess that is one of the many reasons it took 57K rounds for each kill in Vietnam.
 
Hello Microgunner,,,

I'm glad you can rack the slide on a Taurus PT22.
I'd need a pair of Vice Grips and a couple of minutes to accomplish that feat.
Plus with no extractor racking the slide will have little to no effect on clearing the chamber.
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I didn't want to comment on this until I went home and checked something out,,,
Yes, there is no ejector in my 22-PLY so racking the slide doesn't throw out the old cartridge.

One thing though is that I had no trouble at all racking the action,,,
It's stiff and not easy to get a grip on but I racked it just fine.

Now as to why I didn't know about the lack of an ejector,,,
I've never had to use it because the little gun has never malfunctioned.

I have had to strike the cartridge twice when using bulk ammo,,,
But it's never happened to me with MiniMags.

But now I know something about it that I hadn't realized before,,,
If it did experience a dud round that didn't go off after a second or third strike,,,
I would have to flip up the barrel to throw out the dud round and then close it afterwords,,,
I can (I tried it several times at the range Sunday morning) rack the slide to chamber a new round but it wouldn't be quick.

Now one thing I did notice,,,
The slide on my 25-PLY is as stiff as you said,,,
It was all I could do to rack the slide on that little gun even once,,,
I wonder if it's because I shoot the 22-PLY a lot and rarely shoot the 25-PLY.

It's my understanding that the internal workings of the polymer 22-PLY,,,
Are exactly the same as the internals of the steel PT-22,,,
The manual that came with mine is for the PT-22.

The difference (from what I gather in this forum) is that the PLY pistols seem to perform better than the PT pistols I read about.

Aarond

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Regarding reliability of ammo

Methinks we need to be careful to compare apples to apples. Do we compare the reliability of cheap bulk-pack .22LR ammo to premium centerfire that we use for defensive purposes, or to similarly discounted centerfire ammo?

In my own case, I have had a few .22LR rounds fail to fire, but I have also bought boxes of 9mm WWB that had a few rounds with hard primers (evidenced by a good indent in a round that did not fire) and another with a few mashed case rims that caused failures to feed. In all honesty, my records aren't good enough to say whether failures with the .22LR or 9mm were more common, but my estimate is that they were each low but roughly equal as a percentage of rounds fired in the last, say, five years.

It seems to me that you move away from both problems in going to more premium ammo, but I also haven't fired nearly as many Gold Dots or Stingers as I have WWB and Federal Bulk Pack.
 
I would prefer 38 spcl+P or 9mm for self defense, but most people underestimate the 22 LR. As a previous poster pointed out (Wyoming?) a capable shooter can get off rapid fire w. high hit probability using a reliable 22 pistol. Penetration depth is not a problem w. most 22 LR rounds. I don't ascribe to the concept of "shocking power" for nearly all handgun rounds; they "stop" by breaking bones, central nervous system hits, or large blood vessel damage, not by energy transfer. Long gun rounds are very different. With respect to reliability, I have not, since 1966 when I began competitive shooting, had a failure to fire with CCI ammo, nor with Eley ammo. If reliability is a concern, buy target ammo such as Lapua or Eley. Competitive shooters who use that ammo will not tolerate "duds" and the manufacturers know it.
 
Glenn E. Meyer

Chicago Police's view of 22 from a NAA as a 'killer'.
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Indeed--While I think the Chicago Police Dept. would declare even a 'pee-shooter' as a WMD ;), I totally agree with them here. Too many people underestimate the potential lethality of the .22lr (even when fired via a shorter barrel). Definitely not a primary defensive round IMO (BUG sure), but if it's all I had I would not feel incessantly insecure.

Nice articles Glenn via your signature (wonderful to see an academic :eek: that is Pro Second Amendment!).

-Cheers
 
What is a realistic expectation for the time to incapacitate someone with a major caliber handgun?

Assuming that the method of incapacitation is blood loss caused by bullets crushing tissue. This hemorrhaging is caused both by the bullets' diameter and penetration.

Is the time required to incapacitate a determined attacker 5 to 15 seconds with two well placed shots to center of mass?

How much more time would it take to incapacitate someone with two 40 gr .22 lr bullets to center of mass? I assume that a .22 lr bullet would cause significantly less blood loss than a 124gr 9mm hollow point bullet where both bullets take the same path; thus requiring longer to cause incapacitation through blood loss.

Major caliber handgun cartridges are already under-powered. A .22 lr is way below what I would choose.

Do not confuse lethal with incapacitation.
 
Mello2u
...I assume that a .22 lr bullet would cause significantly less blood loss than a 124gr 9mm hollow point bullet where both bullets take the same path; thus requiring longer to cause incapacitation through blood loss...
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Disclaimer and while I am not even close to being a ballistics or trauma expert, from what I have read those two entirely different bullets would in all likelihood not 'take the same path.' If I am correct, it changes the parameters of the thesis...? In fact and unless it's just internet 'folklore' the one characteristic that separates the 'mouse-gun' calibers from more 'standard' calibers is their unpredictability relative to wound track.

Obviously all of this is conjecture and dependent on so many variables (barrel length, clothing, body mass etc...). Yet I have always been struct by the 'purported' claims that mouse-gun calibers tend to track differently in a human target (just to reiterate, I have no empirical foundation for this).

-Cheers
 
Hello PT-92,,,

(wonderful to see an academic that is Pro Second Amendment!).
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I work at Oklahoma State University, College of Education,,,
You might be surprised at how many of our faculty are Pro 2nd Amendment.

I was astonished by how many have their CWL,,,
Even more by how many ignore University policy against carrying on campus.

I like my job so I don't carry on campus,,,
But then again I don't hold a tenured faculty position either.

Aarond

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aarondhgraham

Hello PT-92,,,
Quote:
(wonderful to see an academic that is Pro Second Amendment!).
I work at Oklahoma State University, College of Education,,,
You might be surprised at how many of our faculty are Pro 2nd Amendment.

I was astonished by how many have their CWL,,,
Even more by how many ignore University policy against carrying on campus.

I like my job so I don't carry on campus,,,
But then again I don't hold a tenured faculty position either.

Aarond
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Yeah--I work at a major University in STL, MO. and it's COMPLETELY the opposite (one would be well-advised not to even consider discussing the Second Amendment on-campus absent major job-security concerns). It looks like things (perhaps as expected) are refreshingly different in the good-old South!

-Cheers
 
Ya know this got me thinking ... Sure the .22 lr isnt ideal but I just looked up some ballistics.. The freaking 30gr copper plated RN has 204ft/lbf of energy and the .38spl has 189ft-lbf from a 130gr FMJ .. I don't know much when it comes to ballistics but .. ENERGY is ENERGY !! Despite the quadruple payload weight there's more energy .. Anyways .. Away from numbers .. Think of it this way .. A .22lr (which I personally would only use in a SD situation as a last ditch effort but ...) With a .22lr no recoil whatsoever and especially in an adrenaline charged situation that would be one less thing to worry about .. You could pepper the assailant with 10 rnds real quick on target .. Shot placement is something that will be easy to come by and I do not care who you are (aside from maybe Spec Ops .. Lol) getting hit with them will halt the attack in my personal opinion ..

All this ranting has lead to this .. Getting shot with a bullet fired from a gun no matter the caliber will not be a pleasant experience and if all I had within my grasp was a Ruger Sr-22 .. I would not feel like I was unarmed .. Just saying !!

Now that said .. I wouldn't give up my M&P 40c for any .22lr chambered handgun for EDC ...ever !!
 
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Ya know this got me thinking ... Sure the .22 lr isnt ideal but I just looked up some ballistics.. The freaking 30gr copper plated RN has 204ft/lbf of energy and the .38spl has 189ft-lbf from a 130gr FMJ .. I don't know much when it comes to ballistics but .. ENERGY is ENERGY !!
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That energy is coming from a 18 + inch barrel, not a pistol length barrel. Actually more like 20 + inch barrel.

Here's an example:

CCI 40 GRAIN Velocitors are advertised at 1435 FPS- around 182 foot pounds

I have a Ruger 22/45 with a 5.5 inch barrel

Out of a chronograph, my 10 shot average was 1180 FPS for the pistol- thats 120 foot pounds.


I'd have an itchy trigger finger though, if I was armed with my 10/22 and a 25 rd. mag of Velociters:)
 
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I really doubt, you will find anybody, on the business end of a handgun, that will think hey it's only a .22.
Its a GUN.
OH crap they have a GUN.
When getting shot at, I'm also sure, they never considered, "its only a .22".

I have been robbed at gun point.
I have been on the wrong end of a gun, with people that meant me harm.
If a .22 is what you can afford, use it. If a .22 is what you are most comfortable with, USE IT. Do not listen to the big gun = best gun naysayers.

If you are serious, practice, with what ever you can afford and feel best with.

On the note of rim fires being inherently bad rounds, maybe years ago. And perhaps with cheapo rounds. I have a sig mosquito for the girls to shoot. We only use CCI high velocity rounds for it. The girls have feed over 1000 rounds of it down that pistol, and never has one NOT fired. There have been a few stove pipes, but every single round has gone BANG. YMMV, but I am certain that with modern firearms and reputable ammo, you will not have any issues a rim fire pistol.
 
The Deuce said:
... The freaking 30gr copper plated RN has 204ft/lbf of energy and the .38spl has 189ft-lbf from a 130gr FMJ .. I don't know much when it comes to ballistics but .. ENERGY is ENERGY...
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Energy has very little to do with the effectiveness of a handgun cartridge for self defense. See post 39 for a brief discussion of wound ballistics and how shooting someone can stop him.

Penetration is more important, and penetration will be a function of sectional density. Sectional density is the ratio of a projectile's mass to its cross sectional area. It is a factor in determining how efficiently it can overcome resistance, and therefore how well it can penetrate. The greater the sectional density, the greater the projectile's ability to penetrate.

A 30 grain, .22 caliber bullet has a low sectional density of about 789 grains/sq. in. In contrast, a 130 grain, .357 caliber bullet has a sectional density of about 1299 grains/sq. in, an increase of roughly 65%.
 
Energy has very little to do with the effectiveness of a handgun cartridge for self defense.
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Until it become so low that adequate penetration cannot be achieved.

Like with a .22 RF under all but the bast of circumstances.


It takes energy to force a bullet into and through tissue.

force x distance.

Once you have enough energy more may not be all that valuable at handgun levels, but you still need enough to penetrate.
 
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