22lr handgun for self defense?

[BlueTrain]

One of the problems with the .22 is that the best handguns for a .22 rimfire are not exactly the best for carry. Here I'm thinking of a Ruger .22. There are other good .22 rimfires but good and inexpensive don't go together.

Regarding the man shot in the abdomen with a .22, another writer long ago, in writing about handgun cartridge effectiveness, said the more he learned, the less sure he was about anything. But just the same, he had learned a few useful things. For instance, he stated (in so many words) that some cartridges that today most people would say were very ineffective were ones that in his day were the most feared. But more to the point, he also stated that men shot in the abdomen or stomach invariably doubled up in pain. I do know that a good (bad?) blow to your mid-section will knock the breath out of you and will definately stop you--momentarily. It won't knock you out or down like a blow to the head, though.

Do you suppose how accustomed a person is to being hit has anything to do with their reactions to being struck with anything from a bullet to a 2x4? It is said that boxers are sort of like that, glass jaws notwithstanding.

 

[coldbeer]

Where are you guys getting these .22LR that are so reliable? What brand are you using? Seriously, I would like to know, I want to try some of them, maybe I have just be using the crappy rounds all these years. (Very possible)

I usually have several out of any given Winchester/Federal/Remigton bulk pack that is either crooked, a dud, or sounds like a CB cap going off.




Maybe it's your firearms that are the problem? I can't remenber the last time I've had any 22lr ammo failure to fire.

 

[Crow Hunter]

Maybe it's your firearms that are the problem? I can't remenber the last time I've had any 22lr ammo failure to fire.

Could be.

But that would mean that I have problems with several different firearms models and manufacturers, which I would think would be unlikely.

What brand ammo are you using?

 

[Frank Ettin]

As far as reliability goes, my experience is that .22 lr as a defensive round leaves something to be desired as far a reliability goes.

I'm with a group teaching monthly Basis Handgun classes. Each student fires at least 25 rounds of .22 lr in the live fire portion of the class. We average about 10 students in each class. We use Ruger Mark Is, IIs and IIIs. And we use CCI MiniMag ammunition. We get 2 to 3 misfires each class and usually at least one feeding problem.

 

[brickeyee]

Would a 22 be good for self defense?

How much is YOUR life worth?

As noted, the goal of self defense is to STOP the attack. NOW.

If it happens to result in death of the attacker (generally preferred over your death by most folks) that is NOT your problem.

Firing ANY gun at someone is using lethal force.

It is NOT your intent to kill the attacker.

It IS your intent to STOP THE ATTACK that could result in YOUR death or grave bodily harm.

The law gives permission to use lethal force.

That is force that MAY kill the attacker, not force that MUST kill them.
The attacker made a decision.
They are now going to be left dealing with its consequences (and on of them is the possibility of their death).

Smaller calibers can indeed kill.

Many calibers are lethal with a head shot, but some folks even survive those.

Head shots are hard to perform in a dynamic incident.

A lager caliber to the chest is more likely to result in prompt cessation of actions against you.

A rifle would be even better.
A larger rifle even better.
But rifles are not as convenient to carry and bring into action when needed.

It does not mean smaller may not work, but within reason larger IS better sometimes.

 

[Crosshair]

Anyone want to bet their life on 'cheap' .22s?

How much is YOUR life worth?

A 22 in your hand is superior than the bigger gun that you left at home.

I have a DTA 38 Derringer. While many people disparage derringers, the fact is that gun goes EVERYWHERE with me because it is so stupid easy to conceal.

With small revolvers like the LCR, you get 8 shots instead of 5 in the 38/.357. You also get cheap practice so you are a far better shot. Degraded shooting, is also far easier.

 

[SHR970]

A 22 beats a golf club or tennis racket in the hands of the weak or elderly.

6 hits with a 22 beats 8 misses with a 45.

Presentation of a gun by a determined (now former potential) victim USUALLY makes the aggressor change course. If the aggressor does not think you will use it they will continue with their chosen path in most cases.

Some aggressors are just plain nuts or drugged out of their skulls and shooting them multiple times is required; caliber / gauge, handgun, rifle, or shotgun is irrelevant they are just bullet sponges.

22's offer little stopping power. They stop someone either due to psychological effect (I got shot!!!) or a critical hit to the CNS. They do not do the kind of physical damage / trauma nor do they singly make someone bleed out quickly enough to stop a determined attacker.

22's do not suffer penetration depth problems; they do however have issues breaking through bones and are much more likely to play pinball in you. I know first hand as I have been shot by one. They pumped dye into my blood stream to look for leaks. They already knew my brachial artery had not been severed as I would have bled out long before I got to the hospital. The bullet was removed from behind my shoulder blade; its a 40 gr copper washed solid round nose. From the time I was shot to the time I arrived in the ER was measured in HOURS.

I know the plural of anecdote does not equal data. That said I have on more than one occasion had to provide miscreants a new outlook on the situation. I have yet to have someone dismiss or comment on the caliber of the gun pointing at them and decide to continue their course of action.

 

[Yung.gunr]

I am of the philosophy that you should carry the biggest round you are comfortable with (both shooting and carrying).

That being the case .22lr would not do it for ME. But, if money or physical limitations exist and that is the best round for you, then absolutely use it as your carry round.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

A comment on an older post - racking a PT-22 - you don't need a gun as you could pull the guy's arms out with your bare hands.

It's a tip up and racking is bear. BTW, mine was a horror - the most unreliable gun, I've ever had. It wouldn't feed. Or it would eject an entire live round. Once, the slide closed on a live round being ejected and bent it in half.

Ditched it!

Now, if I had to - I would rather have my Ruger Bearcat or Browning Buckmark than a rolling pin. If I lose the strength in my hands, I certainly would use them. However, the pocket options and belt options are so much better.

I do love to shoot steel with the Buckmark. As for power, we had a pendulum stage. You had to hit for points but if you could get it to rotate, you got extra. Folks with 9s or 45s could get it to go. I put 10 rounds of 22 LR on it. Didn't budge.

 

[Al Den]

Only better'n nothin' at all.

 

[PT-92]

Bottom line for me is the bigger the bullet the better. I confidently carry a 9mm loaded with Hornady's Critical Duty but if I could adequately conceal a .44 or .45 I would (I may be right or wrong so please don't 'caliber-war' me as this stuff IMO is mostly subjective and far from empirical science). I will qualify this by saying that I do carry my 1911 in the Winter (which I am already wishing were here--We have now had over 25 days of 90+ degrees and it's only freaking June!). I have considered perhaps buying a .357 small revolver but I haven't shot a revolver since the early 80's when my Dad was a cop and I would go to the range with him where the PD was issued a S&W Model 10 Service revolver (it was as reliable as clockwork but the double-action was not to my liking).

Conversely and truth be told, if I need to take out the trash late at night in weather like today (100 degrees ) whereby I have just shorts and shoes on I will toss a Beretta 21A .22lr or a Taurus PT-25 ACP in my front pocket and honestly hope for the best should I ever have the misfortune of having to deploy my gun. I will say, however, I carry these daily as a BUG.

For me it's like the old saying goes 'a handgun is what you use to get to your rifle' (or something like that).

-Cheers

 

[m_liebst]

If a .22 is the only thing you can handle, then yes, it is better than yelling.

Seriously?....... wow



Bigger is always better, but if it's all ya got: it beats YOUR FIST, a knife, a bat- and we could go on and on and on about it.

I personally wouldn't wanna get shot with a pellet gun let alone any firearm that I wouldn't even be able to surefully determine - caliber or make- just by the noise of the shot. Most first shots are more than enough to discourage altercations in many scenarios.

I certainly wouldn't be the one standing around trying figure whether the shot pointed at me was coming from a 9mm, a .380, a .22, etc.!

Recommendation 1: ( it being a pistol)- I would NOT use anything that has a barrel shorter than 4.5 inches..- just not enough energy( wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than 40 grains, going less than 1000 FPS)

2: I'd tilt towards 40 grain solids for hopes in more penetration rather than the unreliable expansion of a relatively slow round. Anything lighter than 40 grains is compromising the penetration.

3: Pick reliable ammo, like CCI minimags or Velocitors. Like most have stated, people get uncomfortable with rimfire reliability, so you wanna have new/ premium primer brand ammo.

4: Practice...- with a .22lr you can practice, test various ammo to get familiar with your firearm and see which ammo operates best/ performs the best. All for very cheap!

 

[PT-92]

Stopping Power

The following link provides a good example of 'mouse-gun' caliber stopping power (or at least it will make you ponder):

http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2012/03/on-25acp-and-stopping-power.html

-Cheers

 

[Frank Ettin]

The following link provides a good example of 'mouse-gun' caliber stopping power (or at least it will make you ponder)...

So what?

There will always be examples of an anomalous result. There have been time when a small caliber bullet had a dramatic effect. There have been times when a large caliber bullet had a disappointing effect. The occasional anecdote means nothing.

 

[PT-92]

Frank,

Cool you engines guy . I said it will make you ponder--that's it.

-Cheers

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank,

... I said it will make you ponder--that's it.

Well actually, to be entirely accurate, no -- it doesn't make me ponder.

Over the years I've seen a lot of stories about the great results of this or that sub-caliber round or the lousy results of this or that major caliber round. It's all anecdotal and has the same utility as anecdotes in any other subject.

It's well established that sometimes a small caliber works very well and sometimes it doesn't. And it's well established that sometimes a large caliber works very well and sometimes it doesn't. I don't see anything there to ponder.

The things to ponder are what gives me the best chances of a good result and to what extent I'm willing to trade a lower probability of a good result in exchange for, perhaps, greater convenience.

 

[m_liebst]

LAPD Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty.

Bet if Stacy was shot without the vest/ in the chest, this would've turned out much differently.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Bet if Stacy was shot without the vest/ in the chest, this would've turned out much differently.

Except it fully appears that she wasn't wearing a vest. She was off duty and heading home after a softball game and a brief stop at the station to check her work assignment. According to the article I linked to:

... The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her vehicle door, where it was later found....

Sure doesn't sound like what you'd expect if she had been wearing a vest.

 

[m_liebst]

Except it fully appears that she wasn't wearing a vest. She was off duty and heading home after a softball game and a brief stop at the station to check her work assignment. According to the article I linked to:

Thanks 4 the clarification. xcuse my assumtions. It still seems so unreal.

Could being in the law enforcement agency and being close to work given her the edge in wanting to survive rather than panick/ go into shock, etc., compared to the average person.

 

[Burner]

Over the years I've seen a lot of stories about the great results of this or that sub-caliber round or the lousy results of this or that major caliber round. It's all anecdotal and has the same utility as anecdotes in any other subject.

+20
An infantry E-8 told me a good story about an insurgent shot dead on the spot by one round of 62gr 5.56mm ball to the ass. Are we to then conclude that an ass shot with a 62gr ball is 100% lethal?

No, because number one we have plenty of conflicting accounts and common sense to tell us otherwise. In this case, the bullet had fragmented and deflected as it passed through the man's pelvis so significantly it altered course up into his heart. These things can and will happen, but it is basically a freak event.

Could being in the law enforcement agency and being close to work given her the edge in wanting to survive rather than panick/ go into shock, etc., compared to the average person

No, her sympathetic nervous system did that, her law enforcement background is what made her react in the way she did however. As long as your body is still working you will fall back on your motivations and your training. However, an adequately traumatic wound will flat line Joey Couchpotato the same way it would Larry Vickers 2.0 regardless of training, you can't will your body to do more than it is capable of.