22LR for self defense

HKFan9 "Personally I would take a .22 before I would take a .25 or .32."
I agree with you on the .25 but the .32 has similar performance to .380.
 
True Story told to me by the victim.

A former student of mine was working at a "Quick Mart" after graduation. Three men came into the store late one night and one fired a pistol at him hitting him in the chest. The round was a .22. It was winter and the boy was wearing a thick sweater in addition to his long sleeved shirt. He fell on the floor and pretended to be unconscious. The shooter walked behind the counter and held the gun right over the boy's head and pulled the trigger. The gun only "clicked". After two more misfires, the robber/would-be murderer took what he wanted and left the store with his two buddies. The boy then sat up and looked at his chest. He saw the bullet stuck in his sweater. He pulled on the sweater and the bullet popped out onto the floor leaving a slight indentation and bruse in his skin but not breaking the skin. He called the police etc.
This boy came to visit me not long after the incident and told me about the incident. He told me he had recently accepted Jesus as Savior as a result of his recent miraculous survival. Less than a year later he was driving a big rig truck and was in an accident. He was killed instantly. Life has it's strange twists!
If given a choice, I won't depend on a .22 for anything but squirrels. rabbits and plinking. Others are free to decide for themselves.
 
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Bentonville I hear similar stories like yours about every caliber. Cop shot 7 times with his own .45 hears the bad guys saying they are going to kill him, angry Cop pulls his .32 and kills both bad guys. Guy gets shot 4 times with buckshot and he gets away and survives. It can happen!
 
Beretta 87 .22

I'm looking at buying a Beretta 87 4" now, it's not really one of the itty bitty "mouse gun" sized pocket pistols, but it's charm lies in super reliability, accuracy, and quality. They fit a hand like a pistol should and have a long enough barrel to give you the confidence of knowing you could hit an eyeball at 20 feet.

There is a difference between using a .22 for a specific purpose walking into known scenarios than carrying for general unknown defense though. For me having a super accurate one makes the difference, a nice sized pistol as a deterrent isn't going to be dissed because it's a .22. I carry the same sized Beretta 86 .380 but I'd feel almost as comfortable with the .22 version except in certain defined known situations.

The question "is a .22 good or enough" is out of context when discussed in general broad as applies for everyone terms. For some it's all they need to do the job and do it with confidence. With a .22 it is going to come down to very precise shots being very effective, sloppy hits not placed well are going to be what makes it a marginal gun to have used. It's up to the shooter, and that's what makes it the argument it is between experts and people who don't know.

There's a difference between hypothetical analysis and real life, .22's do better in real life even though statistically with jokers and clowns using them they don't have as high a mortality ratio.

Look up those model 87 4" with the wood grips, not the longer barreled target version, they are sweet.

I've got to add something concerning above posts about the .22's that didn't do the job. Criminal types (the lame ones) are notoriously stupid and ignorant about guns and bullet types. The stupid BG shooting someone in the chest only to have it stopped by a jacket and sweater is not the outcome that would take place with upper echelon bullets. There are differences in the standard velocities, weights, and bullet types that make a night and day difference. The intelligently gun savvy person is going to have a hugely more effective outcome when they make a head shot with a better bullet. The luck involved with ignorant application of deadly force can't be confused with knowledgeable competent use of it.
 
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Just say NO!....

I would STRONGLY avoid using any handgun caliber smaller than .380acp or .38spl +P for protection/duty/concealed carry.
As use of force expert/sworn LE officer/noted gun press writer Massad F Ayoob says; "Friends don't let friends carry mouse guns."
In years past, documented research(court records-LE investigation reports) by sworn LEOs showed the .22LR round obtaining about a 30-40% chance of a "one shot stop". This data is somewhat dated but I'd say it would hold true today or in fact be even lower considering factors like size/weight/drugs-intoxicants etc.
There are some limited applications to carrying the .22LR; injury, illness, problems with muzzle flash/recoil, noise, etc but for most handgun shooters a 9x19mm, a .357magnum, a .44spl, a .357sig, a .40/10mm, a .45acp or .45GAP would be far better.
Some firearms owners may crow about mob hit men or Mossad super spys using .22LR weapons but they fire multiple rounds and are not engaged in high stress use of force/defense incidents.
A S&W DA revolver or Taurus snub .22LR could work as a BUG or a 3rd sidearm in extreme high risk events but those would be highly remote for most carry permit holders, armed professionals or sworn LEOs.
 
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Were I to carry a .22, I would do so in a revolver so that a misfire can be addressed with another pull of the trigger.

Downside is a bad guy Bubba cranked up on coke or meth or whathaveyou who doesn't feel the pain, is intent on harming you and needs to "bleed out" whilst invoking havoc your direction.
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I wasn't really addressing the power of the cartridge. However, you must admit that a cartridge that doesn't fire is even worse than an underpowered one that does. This is why, in a semi-auto, I would prefer a .25 ACP over a .22LR (even though neither gives me the warm and fuzzies).

I'm curiuous how many of you have actually had a 22 rimfire cartridge, misfire? I keep hearing these stories, about how bad they are, but I have been shooting for over 40 years, and have never had one misfire, or had any friends tell me that they have had a misfire. I'm beginning to think this is more of an urban myth, than anyting else. I'm not interested in hearsay, but only actual hands on experience. I've had plenty of misfires shooting old military cartridges, but never a 22 rimfire.
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I've had several although certain brands seem to give fewer than others. The most misfire prone .22 ammo, in my experience, seems to be Remington Thunderbolts, CCI Mini Mags, CCI Stingers, Aguila Colbri, Remington Bulk "Golden Bullets", and Aguila SS Subsonic. The stuff I've had the best luck with is Federal Champion/American Eagle, Eley, and CCI Velocitors. I've experienced .22 Misfires in a variety of guns including Remington bolt and pump action rifles, Marlin and Ruger semi-auto rifles, Ruger and Browning semi-auto pistols, and High Standard, H&R, and S&W revolvers.

The reason that .22's are more prone to misfires is two-fold. First, rimfire cases are spun in a centrifuge in order to distribute the priming compound evenly. If the centrifuge is shut off too soon (a Friday night batch), the priming compound will not be evenly distributed and there will be "dead spots" around the rim. This is why when .22's misfire, rotating the round in the chamber so that the firing pin strikes a different part of the rim will often allow the round to fire. Secondly, .22 LR uses heel-based bullets which allow oil and other contaminants that can ruin the primer into the case easier than inside-lubricated bullets do. Theoretically, a .22 WMR or one of the .17 rimfires should be a bit more reliable than .22 S, L, and LR because the newer cartridges use inside-lubricated bullets.
 
Like the saying goes, "It ain't the gun, it's the shooter."
I'd be comfortable with a .22 for self defense..............
With sufficient training and practice designed for that particular gun.
.22s are weak, but incredibly accurate, low recoil allowing very fast follow up shots, and they penetrate more than expected.
Quickly empty a mag full into a 2x4 and see the results.
Those attributes should be incorporated in the training and practice to have confidence in the caliber.
It'll do.
My 2 cents.
 
I've decided that it's time for me to start buying lottery tickets, by the bushel. Either I'm the luckiest guy on the planet, or some of you are the unluckiest. I just recently stocked up on another 3000 rounds of various 22LR rounds. Hope I didn't buy any of your bad luck.:D
It's been an interesting conversation. I never suspected that there were so many problems with rimfire cartridges.:eek:

EarlFH
 
"Bleeding out" can take several minutes-even if a leg is severed. You certainly don't want to rely on it to stop someone. CNS/organ damage is the only thing reliable. Pain works pretty well, too-most of the time.
"One shot stops" are ridiculous. Why would you only have to shoot once?
.25 ACP is more reliable in an autoloader because the .22LR is prone to misfeeds.
Coconuts are quite a bit softer than skulls.
Now that we have all THAT cleared up, a properly placed .22 will work just fine. If you have bigger, that's fine too.
 
I can't believe that penetrating through, and through, a coconut, including through the center nut, both sides, is softer than a human skull, but if you believe that, I won't protest. Like I said at the beginning. I don't advocate using a 22LR for self defense, unless someone is so adverse to recoil, or noise, that they won't carry anything else. I do think that a cylinder full of 22LR rounds, into the pelvic saddle, will give someone something else to think about, if he can still stand up, rather than scewing with you. I won't argue this any farther, as we are getting nowhere. You have your beliefs, and I have mine.:)

Thanks for the conversation,
EarlFH
 
One of my local FFL's lived in Florida for some time. He was at an ATM when he was accosted by 3 punks with a .22 pistol- I forget the exact model. They didn't waste time threatening him, they just shot him in the face. Two of the rounds hit him point-blank. Neither penetrated his skull and he was able to pull his .38 special and dispatch one of the assailants permanently. The other stumbled away bleeding and the third was never hit. He has a huge scar on his cheek from one of the bullets but not much else.

My brother is a cop and was once called to a suicide where the dead guy used a Beretta .22 Bobcat. The guy popped himself right in the temple and died pretty quickly. My brother said that he could not believe the mess it made, they all though it was a .45 from the amount of blood and gore.

So yes, a .22 will kill a person but certainly not always. And while this can be said for every caliber, a .22 seems especially prone to failure in an SD situation. If it is all you have, it is all you have. But I'd want at least a .32 and preferably a .380 or bigger, if I had a choice.
 
Jeff Cooper: "First tule of Gunfighting: Have a Gun."
Elmer Keith: Responding to a reader's letter abouth what he considered a "mouse gun", he said "it sure beats your fists."
 
The race does not always go to the swiftest, nor the fight to the strongest, but that remains the way to bet. I would not choose the .22LR for defense (I have a .45ACP on my hip as I type,) but plan to succeed with one should the need arise. Indeed, one of the three times I have pointed a gun at a human with a real possibility of shooting them, it was a .22LR. In that event (in all three, actually,) mere possession of a gun was all that was needed. The burglar rewarded me by voiding her bladder right through her blue jeans and bailing out through the window through which she had entered.
 
I'm curiuous how many of you have actually had a 22 rimfire cartridge, misfire? I keep hearing these stories, about how bad they are, but I have been shooting for over 40 years, and have never had one misfire, or had any friends tell me that they have had a misfire. I'm beginning to think this is more of an urban myth, than anyting else. I'm not interested in hearsay, but only actual hands on experience. I've had plenty of misfires shooting old military cartridges, but never a 22 rimfire.

EarlFH
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I've had plenty of .22LR rounds misfire... dozens in fact and I've only been shooting for a few years. I've had MANY different .22LR firearms, some decent, others not much. Just to name a few: Ruger Mk II, Mossberg 151K, Winchester 190, Taurus PT-22, Iver Johnson TP-22, Beretta 21A Bobcat, Sterling .22 pistol, H&R 622, H&R 926, S&W M&P 15-22, Walther P22, and probably others that I am forgetting. Some of these guns were more reliable than others, but every last one them had at least one misfire with Remington Thunderbolts. During the ammo drought of 2009, it was the only ammo I was able to get... so glad those days seem to be over now.
 
Heh, I would say that it's better than no gun at all and I wouldn't want to be shot with one. However, a 22LR from a short pistol barrel packs around the same punch as a .25ACP and you will have people swear up and down that it's a useless round.

The bottom line is that if a 22LR is used for SD, the shooter must be prepared to run like hell in the other direction. A 22LR will not immediately stop anyone unless it is a head or heart shot...and even then it's still a row of the dice.


Ar15M4
22LR for self defense
Does anyone carry the 22lr for self-defense? Pro's and Con's of this? I am not trying to start a caliber war. I just want to hear opinions on the 22lr.
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EarlFH,
Glad to hear that you've never had misfires w/ any .22's.

Me? Too many. Cheap ammo usually... the bulk stuff. Not something I'd trust my life with unless I was broke... really broke. Dented rim and all, once in awhile I'll try them a second time, sometimes they'll fire that 2nd time, sometimes they don't.

Altho' I don't recall any of CCI's mini-mags ever failing to pop off.

(back to topic)
I do recall President Reagan not even realizing he had been shot but then again I also remember seeing photos of Jim Brady lying there from the same round, but neither of those gentlemen were amped up looking to do someone harm. (wasn't someone else shot that day as well? I don't recall)
 
What has been said here about the 22 can be said about any other round!
May work may not. Bullet placement is everything. etc etc etc...
Not my first choice but I'd rather have a rifle anyway.
 
Atltech wrote: "The well argued misconception about the 22LR not being a good S.D. round is not warranted.The facts are that accuracy and placement are the key factors in self defense.I have on occasion carried my Buckmark and I have no doubt that if (God forbid) the need should arise I would have no problem in killing a bad guy. 10 rounds of 1300 f.p.s. hollow point ammo,well placed, would leave little doubt..I.M.H.O."

Are you all that confident you'll be able to get off ten rounds in a fast breaking SD situation? If you get off three rounds before he gets his hands on you and drives a dagger into your heart it'll be little consolation to your family that he eventually bled out. Things never unfold quite as we imagine them in our minds and we are never as swift as svelt as James Bond although we fool ourselves into thinking we are. Do yourself a favor and carry a gun with a reputation for stopping perps with two or three rounds.
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Bentonville wrote: "He told me he had recently accepted Jesus as Savior as a result of his recent miraculous survival. Less than a year later he was driving a big rig truck and was in an accident."

That ought to tell ya sumpt'n!!
 
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