Respectfully, Powderman, you need to do YOURSELF a favor and research the law and/or call the BATFE. There is no Washington State law (where you reside) nor Federal law which prohibits the PRIVATE sale of a handgun to an 18 to 20 year old so long as, in your state, both the buyer and seller are residents of Washington. In jslackin's case, he could buy a handgun from a PRIVATE PARTY who is a resident of Arizona, because there is no Arizona law that prohibits the private sale of a handgun to an 18 to 20 year old. I would challenge you to post the citation of the law, Washington state, Arizona state or Federal, prohibiting it since you are so convinced that it is illegal.
20 yrs old and frustrated
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Respectfully, Powderman, you need to do YOURSELF a favor and research the law and/or call the BATFE. There is no Washington State law (where you reside) nor Federal law which prohibits the PRIVATE sale of a handgun to an 18 to 20 year old so long as, in your state, both the buyer and seller are residents of Washington. In jslackin's case, he could buy a handgun from a PRIVATE PARTY who is a resident of Arizona, because there is no Arizona law that prohibits the private sale of a handgun to an 18 to 20 year old. I would challenge you to post the citation of the law, Washington state, Arizona state or Federal, prohibiting it since you are so convinced that it is illegal.
LT, of course you are correct; I was in a hurry and was dispatched on a call while I was writing this. I left out an important part of my post--the part where I should have included that it is illegal for a licensed dealer to sell a handgun to anyone who is under 21. Incidentally, this also includes a pistol gripped shotgun from a licensed dealer.
My point is this--our OP should not spend time and thought in trying to circumvent the law. I'm sure that most if not all of us agree that the law is not perfect, and in this case, if not fair--but it is the law of the land, and until it is changed it must be followed.
My point is this--our OP should not spend time and thought in trying to circumvent the law. I'm sure that most if not all of us agree that the law is not perfect, and in this case, if not fair--but it is the law of the land, and until it is changed it must be followed.
Fair enough. And you are correct, the purchase of a shotgun with a pistol grip installed is considered a handgun purchase. I don't feel like the OP is trying to circumvent the law, he's just trying to legally obtain a handgun, which I admire any 18 to 20 year old who wants a handgun for appropriate reasons for doing, especially someone serving in the military.
At the same time... while all this frustration is going on
I would suggest you also start contacting the various senators in washington that are supposed to represent you. I'm sure they all campaigned that they "Fully Support Our Troops"... I would point out that the current laws DO NOT SUPPORT many of our Troops. Dog 'em like the dickens....
I still like my first suggestion... find a local handgun shooting club and hang out with those old guys.... Take a NRA pistol course and you will more than likely find one of these. Local gun store should also have information on these.
I would suggest you also start contacting the various senators in washington that are supposed to represent you. I'm sure they all campaigned that they "Fully Support Our Troops"... I would point out that the current laws DO NOT SUPPORT many of our Troops. Dog 'em like the dickens....
I still like my first suggestion... find a local handgun shooting club and hang out with those old guys.... Take a NRA pistol course and you will more than likely find one of these. Local gun store should also have information on these.
That is not correct. His state of residency is where his home of records are and as such he can not legally purchase a handgun from a Arizona resident while he is under 21 years of age. The only way that can change is by a request from himself to change his home of records. That is why he pays state taxes in Indiana, drives with a Indiana drivers license and Indiana vehicle tags. As long as he is in Arizona he is considered on temporary duty. If you have or obtain a CCW permit from your home of records state then if Arizona has a reciprocating agreement with Indiana, which they do, then you may be alright to carry in Arizona but you're not going to get a permit in Arizona because you're not a legal resident of that state. But, with all due respect and as frustrating as it may be what you are asking is how to circumvent the law. That can get you into more hot water than you can imagine. You're looking for information in the wrong place. Contact the location below for the proper information.......
Concealed Weapons Permit Unit
P.O. Box 6488
Phoenix, Arizona 85005
Phone:
Metro Phoenix: (602) 256-6280
Outside Metro Phoenix (In Arizona): (800) 256-6280
David Armstrong
Moderator
I'm sorry, but to even try to equate a possible straw purchase of a firearm by an individual with armed AND DECLARED revolution against a government by a group of citizens is so ludicrous it just needed to be pointed out.
Really? That's really funny because your post is in DIRECT conflict with Arizona State Laws and Federal Law.
#1 According to Federal Law, 18 USC 921, a military member with permanent orders to a state is a resident of that state for firearms purposes:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html
18 USC 921:
(b) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located.
Now, since 18 USC 922 is in the same chapter (Title 44 Chapter 18 USC) as 18 USC 921, and since 18 USC 922 allows private parties to sell hanguns to one another so long as they are same state residents, an Arizona private party can sell to a military member stationed in Arizona, who is now an Arizona resident because of their permanent duty station location.
#2 According to Arizona law, if a military member, who is a citizen of the United States, and who is 21 years old or older desires to obtain an Arizona CCW, they can obtain one, regardless of where their home of record and even regardless of where their duty station is because the requirement for obtaining the permit is in Arizona Statute 13-3112 with the following requirements:
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03112.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS
13-3112. Concealed weapons; qualification; application; permit to carry; certificate of firearms proficiency; training program; program instructors; report; applicability; violation; classification
E. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to an applicant who meets all of the following conditions:
1. Is a resident of this state or a United States citizen.
2. Is twenty-one years of age or older.
Respectfully, Gohon, please research the applicable laws and familiarize yourself with how the process of residency works for military personnel before posting such blatantly incorrect information.
The way I read the ATF pages is that you are a resident
of the state you live in..... they put no legal requirement on DL or taxes... now you are stuck if you try and buy from an FFL (which the questioner can't anyway) in that they require identification of you being a resident of the state of which you have to be the same if you are buying a hand gun from the. With a private face to face sale all you have to do is prove to the person selling the handgun that you are a resident of the same state as them (as I said, according the ATF the state you are living in at the moment) and can legally own the gun.
You can be a resident of more than one state... think about all the folks that live in a Northern state in the Summer and go to Florida in the Winter.
of the state you live in..... they put no legal requirement on DL or taxes... now you are stuck if you try and buy from an FFL (which the questioner can't anyway) in that they require identification of you being a resident of the state of which you have to be the same if you are buying a hand gun from the. With a private face to face sale all you have to do is prove to the person selling the handgun that you are a resident of the same state as them (as I said, according the ATF the state you are living in at the moment) and can legally own the gun.
You can be a resident of more than one state... think about all the folks that live in a Northern state in the Summer and go to Florida in the Winter.
Yes, blume357 you are correct. There are also two more caveats, according to the BATFE for active duty military members. If an active duty service member is stationed in one state such as Maryland or Mass. but lives in a neighboring state, such as VA or CT - that servicemember may purchase firearms in either state - the state ordered to or the state they actually physically maintain a residence in.
Also, there are a couple military bases that extend to two different states. An active duty servicemember stationed on one of those bases may purchase a firearm in either state that base is located in.
Also, there are a couple military bases that extend to two different states. An active duty servicemember stationed on one of those bases may purchase a firearm in either state that base is located in.
You're talking apples to oranges. What you have cited is a federal law pacifically geared towards the military and their having to serve outside their home state. The operative words there are "for firearms purpose". That doesn't mean he is a legal resident of that state. Want to take a guess which state he files income taxes in or votes in. Remember what you told him...... he wasn't a resident where his home of records were.....remember that?
Now you're simply making assumptions that most likely are nothing more than a wild guess.
So what?...... he isn't 21 yet and that is what the subject is about.
There you go again. That has nothing to do with the military. I just bought a long gun in Colorado a few months ago. I'm not a resident of that state. But it borders my state. Ditto for Texas where I have purchased guns. But these are long guns, not hand guns which is moot anyways because being under 21 he can't buy them in any state.
LT., I'm a retired US Navy Officer with 26 years service. Through out my career I've met many sea lawyers so I do fully recognize what is going on here and where you are coming from. You're sitting up there in Oak Harbor Washington giving this kid very bad advice about laws in Arizona which you haven't a real clue about, except from some of your own interpretations off the internet. If the lad has any sense at all he will call the proper authorities there in Arizona and not pay attention to what he is reading here, because neither you nor I can with anything even close to full legal knowledge give him the proper advice.
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Gohon,
The bottom line is this. According to very plain wording in United States Code and very plain interpretation of that code by the BATFE, a military member who is permanently stationed in a state, such as Arizona, with their Active Duty Military ID and properly endorsed orders, can do ANYTHING firearms related that a person with a driver's license from that sate can do, privately or with an FFL. An Active Duty Military ID + properly endorsed permanent orders carries exactly the same weight, for any firearms purpose as a driver's license in that state. I don't even have to show a driver's license to an FFL in order to purchase a firearm in the state that I am ordered to.
For any firearms related transaction, whether it be a private party sale or an FFL transaction, a military member with an Active Duty Military ID and properly endorsed permanent orders to a state can conduct ANY firearms transaction that a resident with a driver's license can. Plain and simple, in very plain language interpretted by the BATFE and Federal government.
And you SPECIFICALLY stated in your post, that since he was not - according to you - a resident of Arizona, that was why he could not get an Arizona CCW. You said nothing in your post about any age requirement. As soon as he turns 21, he can get an Arizona CPL WITHOUT an Arizona driver's license and without changing his home of record because I showed you the Arizona law that allows it!
I am an Active Duty Navy officer with 24 years of military of service both to the Army and the Navy and have been stationed in 8 different states. And, also, I don't need to be an expert on Arizona laws, because it is Federal Law that is establishing his state of residency for firearms purposes.
The bottom line is this. According to very plain wording in United States Code and very plain interpretation of that code by the BATFE, a military member who is permanently stationed in a state, such as Arizona, with their Active Duty Military ID and properly endorsed orders, can do ANYTHING firearms related that a person with a driver's license from that sate can do, privately or with an FFL. An Active Duty Military ID + properly endorsed permanent orders carries exactly the same weight, for any firearms purpose as a driver's license in that state. I don't even have to show a driver's license to an FFL in order to purchase a firearm in the state that I am ordered to.
For any firearms related transaction, whether it be a private party sale or an FFL transaction, a military member with an Active Duty Military ID and properly endorsed permanent orders to a state can conduct ANY firearms transaction that a resident with a driver's license can. Plain and simple, in very plain language interpretted by the BATFE and Federal government.
And you SPECIFICALLY stated in your post, that since he was not - according to you - a resident of Arizona, that was why he could not get an Arizona CCW. You said nothing in your post about any age requirement. As soon as he turns 21, he can get an Arizona CPL WITHOUT an Arizona driver's license and without changing his home of record because I showed you the Arizona law that allows it!
I am an Active Duty Navy officer with 24 years of military of service both to the Army and the Navy and have been stationed in 8 different states. And, also, I don't need to be an expert on Arizona laws, because it is Federal Law that is establishing his state of residency for firearms purposes.
You just don't get it do you. Federal law is NOT establishing his state of residency. His state of residency is Indiana. What federal law is doing is establishing that since he is out of his home state a provision is established for the purpose of firearms, for the purpose of driving, for the purpose of tagging his vehicle and several other specified items, which he will be treated as a resident would because he is military. For those specific purposes only. He cannot vote there, pay state taxes, petition the state government or any of the things a normal state resident can do. He is a permanent resident of of Indiana where his home of records are established. He can change that if he wishes but until he does he is not a permanent resident of Arizona.
Nevertheless two things are clear. (1) you and I have taken this off topic and that is not good. If you wish to continue this then PM me and I will discuss it with you there. (2) The lad was asking a question on how to circumvent the law and some have attempted to give him advise on how to do it with a straw purchase. This also is wrong on both accounts. We all had to wait until age 21 to do a lot of things and it didn't hurt any of us. His count down is in months, not years so waiting until he is of legal age is the best option. There will come a time soon enough that he'll wish the heck he was still just 20 years old.
Huey, that is correct but he still cannot carry it concealed which is what he wants to do. He can carry it open in those places that allow open carry if one can figure out where those places are. I open carried many, many years ago in Phoenix but was not allowed to open carry a loaded firearm when up in Jerome visiting relatives. Didn't make much sense carrying a firearm on my hip with no bullets in it, but that was the city ordinance at the time. Eventually I learned that open carry on the streets wasn't as cool as I thought it was and generally was a invitation for confrontation.
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Gohon, I didn't see where the 'lad' was asking how to circumvent the law
he was asking how to buy a firearm in the state he resides in now.
I think you are dead wrong about the 'residency' thing.
Here is why... My 'perminant' residence is in S.C. this is where I have my D.L., pay taxes and vote... so I think we can all agree I can purchase any type of gun from either an FFL or private individual assuming I can legally own the same.
I also own a 2nd home in N.C. The way I read the BAFT pages I can also purchase a gun in N.C. because while I'm at that vacation home I am according to them a resident of N.C.
he was asking how to buy a firearm in the state he resides in now.
I think you are dead wrong about the 'residency' thing.
Here is why... My 'perminant' residence is in S.C. this is where I have my D.L., pay taxes and vote... so I think we can all agree I can purchase any type of gun from either an FFL or private individual assuming I can legally own the same.
I also own a 2nd home in N.C. The way I read the BAFT pages I can also purchase a gun in N.C. because while I'm at that vacation home I am according to them a resident of N.C.
JagFarlane
New member
Ok first off, the military ID and orders are just a guideline.
The ID and orders are there because you are in the state under government orders to be there and thusly give you the rights to purchase and own a firearm in that state. The state, however, has the right to impose its own regulations in the matter. On top of that, the store also has its own rights to impose their own regulations.
For example, I am stationed in Virginia. In VA I am technically only required to have my ID and a copy of my orders, and be 21 to purchase a handgun. On top of that, some stores have their own requirements. Stores such as Bass Pro Shops and Dicks Sporting Goods now require that military have the following: Military ID, orders stamped original copy, drivers license/state ID, and a secondary form of ID [check with VA address, bill, bank statement, notarized lease].
Truthfully the best answer that could have been given to this question is, call and ask the store you wish to purchase from. Since you are on a base, the vast majority of gun shops near you will be rather well schooled in selling to military and can tell you everything you need before you come in and make your purchase.
JagFarlane
New member
Yeah I find these things ironic. Say for example, I go to the local gun shop, I'm sitting there pulling all sorts of authorized paperwork out the wazoo, then waiting the next hour because my security clearance makes my background check take ever so much longer. Then, as I wait, I watch gangbanger wannabe come in, purchase the same firearm, with almost no paperwork, and walk out well ahead of me. Just doesn't make any sense heh.
On the other hand there is a less regulated substance, that when combined with an easily obtainable item that requires all of an id and money, that kills someone every 40 minutes. This substance...alcohol. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it myself, but responsibly and not when I'm going to drive.
Go figure...
On the other hand there is a less regulated substance, that when combined with an easily obtainable item that requires all of an id and money, that kills someone every 40 minutes. This substance...alcohol. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it myself, but responsibly and not when I'm going to drive.
Go figure...
Blume357, here is a quote from the OP.... "Just throwing those out there as ideas as to how to work around whatever system is preventing me from owning/carrying". Seems pretty clear, at least to my mind what he is asking for, but I could be wrong.
As to the residency thing, most states have their own laws/requirements as mentioned by JagFarlane. One of those is what they call border policy. Most states have this but not all do. For example my state of Oklahoma allows residents from only 6 other states to buy firearms in this state because they border this state. If you are outside those 6 bordering states they will not sell you a gun. Colorado is one of those states and also has the same provision for out of state border residents. However Colorado requires that I not only have to be cleared through NICs but through Colorado's crime investigating system. The last rifle I bought in Colorado in October of last year took 5 minutes through NICs and 5 hours through the Colorado system. A real PITA but that is their state law.
Here is a good example read on how states can and do regulate above and below Federal minimum age requirements for firearm purchases. http://www.lcav.org/content/minimum_age_purchase_possess.pdf As can be seen, not all men are created equal when it comes to firearm regulations.
As to the residency thing, most states have their own laws/requirements as mentioned by JagFarlane. One of those is what they call border policy. Most states have this but not all do. For example my state of Oklahoma allows residents from only 6 other states to buy firearms in this state because they border this state. If you are outside those 6 bordering states they will not sell you a gun. Colorado is one of those states and also has the same provision for out of state border residents. However Colorado requires that I not only have to be cleared through NICs but through Colorado's crime investigating system. The last rifle I bought in Colorado in October of last year took 5 minutes through NICs and 5 hours through the Colorado system. A real PITA but that is their state law.
Here is a good example read on how states can and do regulate above and below Federal minimum age requirements for firearm purchases. http://www.lcav.org/content/minimum_age_purchase_possess.pdf As can be seen, not all men are created equal when it comes to firearm regulations.
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Gohon,
You are not even familiar with Oklahoma statutes. I challenge you to post the Oklahoma statute that PROHIBITS residents of states not contiguous with Oklahoma from purchasing rifles in Oklahoma. I was stationed at Tinker AFB for three years from 2001 to 2004. During that time, my wife purchased two rifles from two separate FFL's - Academy Sports and Brigadoon's Military Surplus with a Wyoming driver's license as a Wyoming resident because she was a military dependent and not a resident of Oklahoma.
Here, let me help you. Nothing in Oklahoma law PROHIBITS a Wyoming resident from purchasing a rifle in Oklahoma. Posted below is the Oklahoma statute that applies, and, if you were familiar with BATFE published interpretations in the August 2004 FFL newsletter, you would know that any resident who is legal by their own state laws to purchase rifles out of state can purchase rifles from FFLs in Oklahoma. Notice that the word "PROHIBITED" does NOT appear anywhere in the Oklahoma statute.
Oklahoma Statute:
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/OK_Statutes/CompleteTitles/os21.rtf
I would suggest that you read the 2004 BATFE FFL Newsletter in it's entirety because it will clear up all the misconceptions about state residency and out of state purchasing that you have. Although I doubt that you will admit that you are wrong about anything.
August 2004 FFL Newsletter:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl_newsltr_aug04.pdf
You are not even familiar with Oklahoma statutes. I challenge you to post the Oklahoma statute that PROHIBITS residents of states not contiguous with Oklahoma from purchasing rifles in Oklahoma. I was stationed at Tinker AFB for three years from 2001 to 2004. During that time, my wife purchased two rifles from two separate FFL's - Academy Sports and Brigadoon's Military Surplus with a Wyoming driver's license as a Wyoming resident because she was a military dependent and not a resident of Oklahoma.
Here, let me help you. Nothing in Oklahoma law PROHIBITS a Wyoming resident from purchasing a rifle in Oklahoma. Posted below is the Oklahoma statute that applies, and, if you were familiar with BATFE published interpretations in the August 2004 FFL newsletter, you would know that any resident who is legal by their own state laws to purchase rifles out of state can purchase rifles from FFLs in Oklahoma. Notice that the word "PROHIBITED" does NOT appear anywhere in the Oklahoma statute.
Oklahoma Statute:
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/OK_Statutes/CompleteTitles/os21.rtf
I would suggest that you read the 2004 BATFE FFL Newsletter in it's entirety because it will clear up all the misconceptions about state residency and out of state purchasing that you have. Although I doubt that you will admit that you are wrong about anything.
August 2004 FFL Newsletter:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl_newsltr_aug04.pdf
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