1911 FLGR
- Thread starter Koda94
- Start date
Wouldn't the spring have to already be bent or kinked for that to happen?
There is only about 1/2" of spring that is not supported by either running on the guide rod or in the plug, a tight fit in both cases, so how much is that 1/2" of unsupported spring going to move around?
Aguila Blanca
Staff
This discussion is as bad as the 9mm/.45 ACP caliber wars. IMHO nothing the purists can say will dissuade those who believe the FLGR offers benefits, and nothing the FLGR aficionados can say is likely to persuade those who regard the FLGR as snake oil.
Good Grief, lets not get worked up over a forum discussion. My question was never what was better it was why manufacturers include them in their new guns. The origin of the design came from competition shooting and thats why they include them now because people think it makes their guns higher performance, how much that helps them is subjective and in my opinion it doesn't add anything to a practical defensive 1911, there is a huge difference between a competition race gun design and a practical home defense 1911. Its like comparing an Indy car to a Honda.
About the spring bowing, the ID of the recoil plug is still really close to the OD of the spring and a FLGR isn't going to eliminate all the bowing, or eliminate all the "crunching"... if this shaves a fraction of a millisecond off the cycle time a competition shooter could argue that adds up over hundreds of rounds, but does it shave a fraction of a millisecond off the cycle time of a practical gun most people buy, I don't think so.
I hope everyone here is participating for the fun of discussing guns.
About the spring bowing, the ID of the recoil plug is still really close to the OD of the spring and a FLGR isn't going to eliminate all the bowing, or eliminate all the "crunching"... if this shaves a fraction of a millisecond off the cycle time a competition shooter could argue that adds up over hundreds of rounds, but does it shave a fraction of a millisecond off the cycle time of a practical gun most people buy, I don't think so.
I hope everyone here is participating for the fun of discussing guns.
Good image.
http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/kimber-1911-ray-gunz.jpg
I think it shows very well that only if the spring is damaged will it kink or bind under operation. Remember the main point of the spring is to return the gun to battery, strip a new round from the mag and run the new round into the chamber. How it feels has no effect on it's doing it's job. It begins to do it's job only after the round has left the barrel. The trigger is pulled only after the spring has stopped it's movement.
Bill Wilson in his book "The Combat Auto" (Second Edition from 1994, chapter on Combat Accessories) says:
"Guide rods are a functional item. They improve reliability and usually improve accuracy slightly --although they're rarely billed as an aid to accuracy--by keeping everything operating the same way every time."
In the book he doesn't explain any more about them. I believe what he's saying that in his and some others hands they can feel the slight difference, shot to shot, that the action of the spring compressing and releasing makes. They advise that a FLGR will diminish that and make each shot feel "the same way every time". I personally am not that sensitive that I can feel the difference.
He also states that it can improve reliability by making the action of the compressing and releasing spring closer to being identical each time and with less movement of the spring. It will also limit any movement of the spring retainer (GI guide rod) which does move a bit as the spring moves. But if this has any quantifiable measurable effect it's very slight. I remember Walt's experiments with this. I've read others.
Will it make the spring last longer? I doubt the difference could be measured. The spring does precious little squirreling around either way.
He doesn't mention the question of additional weight up front which some shooters like, as it can aid in recoil recovery. Or that some shooters like the "smoother" feel of it.
If you are looking for an edge in the higher levels of competition the FLGR may help some. More because it helps the shooter, rather than the gun. More because of the practical effect on the shooter then the mechanical effect on the gun.
One of the great strengths of the 1911 is that it's adaptable, more so than any other handgun, to the shooters needs and preferences. A FLGR fits some folks needs or desires.
tipoc
http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/kimber-1911-ray-gunz.jpg
I think it shows very well that only if the spring is damaged will it kink or bind under operation. Remember the main point of the spring is to return the gun to battery, strip a new round from the mag and run the new round into the chamber. How it feels has no effect on it's doing it's job. It begins to do it's job only after the round has left the barrel. The trigger is pulled only after the spring has stopped it's movement.
Bill Wilson in his book "The Combat Auto" (Second Edition from 1994, chapter on Combat Accessories) says:
"Guide rods are a functional item. They improve reliability and usually improve accuracy slightly --although they're rarely billed as an aid to accuracy--by keeping everything operating the same way every time."
In the book he doesn't explain any more about them. I believe what he's saying that in his and some others hands they can feel the slight difference, shot to shot, that the action of the spring compressing and releasing makes. They advise that a FLGR will diminish that and make each shot feel "the same way every time". I personally am not that sensitive that I can feel the difference.
He also states that it can improve reliability by making the action of the compressing and releasing spring closer to being identical each time and with less movement of the spring. It will also limit any movement of the spring retainer (GI guide rod) which does move a bit as the spring moves. But if this has any quantifiable measurable effect it's very slight. I remember Walt's experiments with this. I've read others.
Will it make the spring last longer? I doubt the difference could be measured. The spring does precious little squirreling around either way.
He doesn't mention the question of additional weight up front which some shooters like, as it can aid in recoil recovery. Or that some shooters like the "smoother" feel of it.
If you are looking for an edge in the higher levels of competition the FLGR may help some. More because it helps the shooter, rather than the gun. More because of the practical effect on the shooter then the mechanical effect on the gun.
One of the great strengths of the 1911 is that it's adaptable, more so than any other handgun, to the shooters needs and preferences. A FLGR fits some folks needs or desires.
tipoc
I think the gap is closer to 3/4" actually but the thing is the spring is more than half compressed installed in the gun. Bowing might be an issue if the spring was starting from a relaxed position (?) but its under a lot of tension to begin with any minor bowing in the area of the gap is still supported by the frame and as the slide cycles and as the spring compresses even more the bowing isn't going to increase as its forced onto the guide and into the plug...
I dont think its moving around.
Yes, I'm having fun with it....in the end each of us will do what we want. It does seem like some guys are getting a little too worked up over it ...but it is what it is...
Just for the record...Wilson Combat does not ship 100% of their guns with full length guide rods.../ ..many models come standard with the GI guide rod.../..but when you spec a gun - order a new gun from Wilson you can spec the guide rod, sights, finish, etc on a new gun ....you don't just order a model and be done with it / you can get what you want within reason.
I understand a lot of guys would not carry a full sized 5" 1911 like I do ...especially a Wilson Combat..let alone one in 9mm...and a FLGR.../ but I have carried 5" 1911's from Wilson for the last 20 yrs or so 90% of the time ( and the other 10% of the time, I carry a S&W revolver in .357 mag ) ...but it works for me.
Just for the record...Wilson Combat does not ship 100% of their guns with full length guide rods.../ ..many models come standard with the GI guide rod.../..but when you spec a gun - order a new gun from Wilson you can spec the guide rod, sights, finish, etc on a new gun ....you don't just order a model and be done with it / you can get what you want within reason.
I understand a lot of guys would not carry a full sized 5" 1911 like I do ...especially a Wilson Combat..let alone one in 9mm...and a FLGR.../ but I have carried 5" 1911's from Wilson for the last 20 yrs or so 90% of the time ( and the other 10% of the time, I carry a S&W revolver in .357 mag ) ...but it works for me.
Keep in mind he also sells them to the public at large, as upgrades (or in new guns) to practical 1911s... not race guns.
One question I have now is what are the design and dimensions of these race guns? Some of the pictures Ive seen look futuristic and I wonder if some of them, the ones designed from the beginning for competition shooting only, will even work with off the shelf 1911 parts... including an off the shelf FLGR?
its entirely possible the tolerances on the recoil spring system of these race guns are way tighter and even completely different to eliminate the "crunching" effect and someone whos designed these systems can actually say from that the FLGR really does improve performance... on a race gun.
Hunter Customs
New member
Awhile back I wrote an in depth explanation about the benefits of a full length guide rod, I thought it was on this Forum but it may have been on another Forum I used to visit. I'm not about to try an explain it all in detail using this tablet, my computer crashed so this is all I got. I currently only possess 3 1911 guns all the rest were sold in my auction, one is an original 1911 the other two are custom guns I built. None of the three have full length guide rods, the original 1911 for obvious reason the two custom guns would not benefit because they have well fit barrels in them. In short I will say a full length guide rod can benefit the accuracy in some 1911 guns but not well built guns with well fit match grade barrels. If one studies the design of both spring guide systems it's very easy to see how a full length guide rod can and will benefit a loose fit barrel, enough said. Happy New Year to all.
I would be more concerned if the barrel wasn't stationary. I mean, can you imagine the possible problems that could happen if the barrel did something crazy like tilt when fired?
Ed Brown used to scoff at FLGRs but then started getting demands for them in his top-of-the-line Classic Custom. So, he put them in the pistol and will sell as many of them as he can.
http://www.edbrown.com/faq/#aas
Besides the nominal extra weight on the muzzle, which makes no difference in my shooting, a FLGR is simply a placebo for most people. If it mentally makes you shoot better, it helps. If it mentally helps justify buying a pistol, I'm all for it.
http://www.edbrown.com/faq/#aas
nice. Kudos to Ed Brown for being honest about the FLGR and not compromising the 1911 design for marketing reasons just to make money off selling them because people think they improve the 1911.
It looks like they are only available for custom builds if a customer insists on having one...
http://www.edbrown.com/build/
nice. Kudos to Ed Brown for being honest about the FLGR and not compromising the 1911 design for marketing reasons just to make money off selling them because people think they improve the 1911.
It looks like they are only available for custom builds if a customer insists on having one...
http://www.edbrown.com/build/
2ndsojourn
New member
They make things that people buy.
Why do they make single ply toilet paper? Because people buy it.
Why do they make single ply toilet paper? Because people buy it.
When I looked at the picture, I was struck by the thought that I have seen that level of "bowing" on springs that are fully supported with a guide rod.here is a link to an xray of a 1911 showing the bowing taking place of the recoil spring that Iron Bottom mentions. Honestly, this is the first and best answer to a reason for using a FLGR even if its also not outside of its design intent to bow a little in that short space.
I'd like to see side-by-side comparison X-ray photos of both standard length and full length guide rods to see what, if any, change there is in the bowing of the spring.
By the way, here's another xray photo of a standard length guide rod showing the gun at the instant before the bullet exits the barrel with virtually no detectable bowing of the spring apparent.
Walt Sherrill
New member
KyJim said:
A lot of people bought deer whistles for their cars -- to avoid deer/car collisions -- without any evidence that the deer could hear the whistles in time to get out of the way, or that the whistles performed in a frequency range that deer could hear. (One wonders whether the whistles might even make deer stop to figure out what it was making th noise and whether it was a potential risk.)
That seems a bit like using full-length guide rods.
I did find an earlier discussion here using the SEARCH function, with a lot of observations and thoughtful comments, including some from those very familiar with 1911s. (I had been looking for this for a while, and finally found it!!) This discussion does have several links to a couple of Ransom Rest test comparisons. See response #33 for the links.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=554504&highlight=tests+of+full+length+guide+rods
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Of course, they also sell "GI" length (non-full length) guide rods, which begs the question, given your "insight": Does Brownells make a lot of money selling them to non-gullible 1911 owners?
Personally, I don't begrudge one penny they make selling their wares, given their support and commitment to the preservation of the Second Amendment over the past several decades.
I have two 1911’s that came stock with full length guide rods. I’ve never seen a real difference in shooting them. I don’t think that they’re that hard to disassemble.
I’ve never seen a need to change them out on either pistol. I never seen a need to add them to any of my other 1911’s, either.
My 2002 Springfield Armory Loaded.
My 2015 Colt XSE Combat Elite.
This thread needed some pictures.
I’ve never seen a need to change them out on either pistol. I never seen a need to add them to any of my other 1911’s, either.
My 2002 Springfield Armory Loaded.
My 2015 Colt XSE Combat Elite.
This thread needed some pictures.
I previously posted that I added a Wilson flatwire recoil spring (13lb.) and the full length guiderod & plug sized for the flatwire spring, in my full length STI Trojan 9mm 1911.
Yesterday I took this gun out to the range with the following ammo types;
Fiocchi 115gr FMJ
Fed AE 147gr FMJ
Fed Aluminum Cased Champion 115gr
Fed HST 150gr JHP
Sig 124gr JHP
This gun shot every type of ammo beautifully and locked back on an empty mag every time. I had no issues shooting that Fed Champion aluuminun cased ammo, previously, I wouldn’t shoot that ammo through this gun on a dare! I’m very convinced that the Wilson flatware recoil spring, with the full-length guiderod & plug is a bona-fide upgrade & improvement for this gun at least!
Yesterday I took this gun out to the range with the following ammo types;
Fiocchi 115gr FMJ
Fed AE 147gr FMJ
Fed Aluminum Cased Champion 115gr
Fed HST 150gr JHP
Sig 124gr JHP
This gun shot every type of ammo beautifully and locked back on an empty mag every time. I had no issues shooting that Fed Champion aluuminun cased ammo, previously, I wouldn’t shoot that ammo through this gun on a dare! I’m very convinced that the Wilson flatware recoil spring, with the full-length guiderod & plug is a bona-fide upgrade & improvement for this gun at least!
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