FLGR means Full Length Guide Rod
1911 FLGR
- Thread starter Koda94
- Start date
I watched the clip in its entirety for three reasons: (1) It was only a little more than two minutes long, (2) I have a lot of confidence in the credibility and expertise of Brownells and, (3), I like to keep an open mind on most things.
For those who didn't watch it, the short video, though predictably lacking in definitiveness, was interesting and offered the standard "logical" argument(s) for using a FLGR even if, albeit, lacking any real evidence for an advantage to using it in the "real" world.
Whereas I don't think any extra weight the FLGR might offer will be particularly noticeable when firing the pistol, I don't believe it will adversely affect reliability either. Like so many things in gundom, and especially so when it comes to 1911 "add-ons", the FLGR seems to be another answer to another question never asked.
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yeah, I also watched it all... it shows just how far this money maker has gone even with experienced shooters like Brownells. The argument presented there was merely a difference of convenience of not having to remove the recoil plug, and not any performance upgrade. They also neglected to inform the viewer to be careful not to bump the removed slide assembly that way...
WRONG! The spring does NOT kink, and it CANNOT kink. It's captive inside the pistol. It's restricted against kinking by the frame and slide tunnel below and on both sides, and by the barrel above.
Yes I know from using a 1911 for 42 years but the video also explains it. The video was posted more for the OP as I do not know their level of experience. Unless otherwise posted, I will consider them a novice and young shooter just getting into shooting.
Yes I know from using a 1911 for 42 years but the video also explains it. The video was posted more for the OP as I do not know their level of experience. Unless otherwise posted, I will consider them a novice and young shooter just getting into shooting.
I have a 9mm STI Trojan and I put a Wilson Combat (13 lb.) flat wire recoil spring in it, and I use the Wilson Combat full length guide rod & plug for the flat wire recoil spring, the flat wire spring guide rod is thinner than a standard guide rod because the I.D. of the flat wire spring is thinner than a standard spring. I don’t use a shock buffer with this setup. This is one case where the recoil action of the slide is just so smooth that I think this whole setup makes a difference in this 9mm 1911 over the standard FLGR & spring that was in it to begin with. I highly recommend a similar setup in a Govt’t length 9mm 1911.
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Iron bottom
New member
I have noticed that the spring cannot be fully captured because the guide rod cannot be longer than the spring plug and the spring plug cannot be longer than the spring plug tunnel. The section of the spring that is not captured can bow and contact the spring plug tunnel.
This is where that crunching comes from when the slide cycles. I don't like the crunching or the spring grinding on the plug tunnel.
A full length guide smoothes up the cycle of the slide if you have a crunchy spring.
I run long guide rods and 14 lb springs on all 1911s. They seem to operate much better.
YMMV.
Edit: There are X-rays on the web where you can see the way the spring bows and hits the tunnel.
This is where that crunching comes from when the slide cycles. I don't like the crunching or the spring grinding on the plug tunnel.
A full length guide smoothes up the cycle of the slide if you have a crunchy spring.
I run long guide rods and 14 lb springs on all 1911s. They seem to operate much better.
YMMV.
Edit: There are X-rays on the web where you can see the way the spring bows and hits the tunnel.
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Bottom Gun
New member
I personally dislike the FLGR. I have owned and shot 1911 pistol for 47 years and have NEVER had an issue with a short GI style recoil spring guide. I’m a big Kimber fan and some of their models include a FLGR, which is the first part I replace on every pistol. I see no advantage to them.
I have some 1911 pistols that might be considered “high end” or at least better than average. They are Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer and Dan Wesson. Not one of these pistols has a FLGR. I guess these manufacturers didn’t think they were necessary.
I have some 1911 pistols that might be considered “high end” or at least better than average. They are Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer and Dan Wesson. Not one of these pistols has a FLGR. I guess these manufacturers didn’t think they were necessary.
Walt Sherrill
New member
Aguila Blanca said:
True. NOT a lot of room for things to get out of line...
I would argue that IF a spring ever DID kink, it was because the metal of the spring failed in one or more places, and it would arguably kink (or otherwise not function properly) even if it was mounted on a full-length guide rod.
Bottom Gun said:
I know Wilson sells some of their line with FLGRs.
https://www.wilsoncombat.com/classic/
I have an aftermarket Tungsten-Carbide full-length recoil spring guide in my Springfield Armory M1911A1. It adds weight to the muzzle of the gun, which I like.
Yes, Wilson Combat sells a number of their guns with FLGR's ....( I have a full sized CQB that is about 17 yrs old in .45acp / a full sized Protector model in 9mm....about 11 yrs old )....both were shipped with FLGR's....and both have run 100% right out of box.../ and continue to run 100%.
I don't see a downside to FLGR .... 9MM Protector is my carry gun now...around 200,000 rds thru it to date ( I shoot it a lot )... and last Fri, I ordered a pair of Wilsons new 13# flat wire springs & the new FLGR for flat wire springs....
( just upgrading to new flat wire springs, Wilson estimates 40,000 rd life vs 3k - 5k for standard springs )....gun runs well now, I don't forsee any future problems. I avg about 20,000 rds a year thru the 9mm protector.../ I'll run 2,000 rds with new flat spring before I carry the gun ( CQB...will be a comfortable carry for a couple of weeks..it was my primary carry up until about 2 yrs ago ).
FLGR or not...doesn't affect what gun I choose to carry...if it runs, it runs !! I don't worry about it beyond that...
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About 3 wks ago I found a broken recoil spring ...when i cleaned 9mm Protector / gun didn't fail in my practice drills. I suspect FLGR allowed it to dontinue to run..( spring broke about 4 coils back, at muzzle end )...spring was 8 wks in gun so about 4,000 rds...Reminder was for next Fri to replace...chrome silicone 13# spring )....
I don't see a downside to FLGR .... 9MM Protector is my carry gun now...around 200,000 rds thru it to date ( I shoot it a lot )... and last Fri, I ordered a pair of Wilsons new 13# flat wire springs & the new FLGR for flat wire springs....
( just upgrading to new flat wire springs, Wilson estimates 40,000 rd life vs 3k - 5k for standard springs )....gun runs well now, I don't forsee any future problems. I avg about 20,000 rds a year thru the 9mm protector.../ I'll run 2,000 rds with new flat spring before I carry the gun ( CQB...will be a comfortable carry for a couple of weeks..it was my primary carry up until about 2 yrs ago ).
FLGR or not...doesn't affect what gun I choose to carry...if it runs, it runs !! I don't worry about it beyond that...
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About 3 wks ago I found a broken recoil spring ...when i cleaned 9mm Protector / gun didn't fail in my practice drills. I suspect FLGR allowed it to dontinue to run..( spring broke about 4 coils back, at muzzle end )...spring was 8 wks in gun so about 4,000 rds...Reminder was for next Fri to replace...chrome silicone 13# spring )....
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
They also neglected to include a disclaimer that Brownells makes a lot of money selling full-length guide rods to gullible 1911 owners.Koda94 said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Bowing (within the rather tight confines of the space in which the spring operates) is not the same as "kinking."Iron Bottom said:
Many companies make money selling upgrades, Brownells and Wilson Combat among them. I and many others may choose not to buy them but if someone else wants one so be it. I really don’t care how someone else spends his/her money. That said I do tend to be skeptical of videos and reviews on said products by companies that sell those products. Truly unbiased opinions are few and far between.
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Iron bottom
New member
That's why I said bowing and not kinking. And as I said, I don't want the spring bowing and the coils catching on the back of the plug tunnel one coil at a time as it compresses.
I like the smoothness and the lack of a crunching sound from the spring. I also chamfer the inside of the spring plug to smooth out the movement of the spring.
YMMV.
I like the smoothness and the lack of a crunching sound from the spring. I also chamfer the inside of the spring plug to smooth out the movement of the spring.
YMMV.
I don't understand all the teeth grinding going on here...???
If you like the GI guide rod ok / ...if you like the FLGR then spec your next gun with it. Personally, I like the FLGR ...so if I order another 1911, I will spec the gun with it. Do whatever suits you.
I'm looking forward to testing ....and hopefully liking Wilson's new "flat spring" technology in my primary carry gun /..but I really don't care if my buddies go to it or not on their carry guns --- we'll discuss it over dinner after our weekly matches ... but my 2 buddies that carry 5" 1911's...one is a GI rod guy, the other is a die hard 2 pc, FLGR guy...it'll all work out( all 3 are 5" wilsons, a pair of CQB's both in 9mm ...and my 5" Protector in 9mm......and they all run just fine ! ).
If you like the GI guide rod ok / ...if you like the FLGR then spec your next gun with it. Personally, I like the FLGR ...so if I order another 1911, I will spec the gun with it. Do whatever suits you.
I'm looking forward to testing ....and hopefully liking Wilson's new "flat spring" technology in my primary carry gun /..but I really don't care if my buddies go to it or not on their carry guns --- we'll discuss it over dinner after our weekly matches ... but my 2 buddies that carry 5" 1911's...one is a GI rod guy, the other is a die hard 2 pc, FLGR guy...it'll all work out( all 3 are 5" wilsons, a pair of CQB's both in 9mm ...and my 5" Protector in 9mm......and they all run just fine ! ).
Here is a video of a cutaway 1911 firing in slo-motion. At about 1:19 and again at 2:20 they show clear views of the recoil spring with the G.I. retainer in recoil. You can see there is no room for the spring to kink. This is the case even without the (debateably necessary) Wilson Shok-Buff in place. You can also see that the spring itself only begins to compress after the bullet has left the barrel. Watch it a couple of times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jig-RvZr1OM
Again in this display video at about 1:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngdXOytZ2a4
IIRC FLGRs were introduced in the 1980s at a time when competitive shooting with raceguns began to take off. Bill Wilson was one of the first to introduce them. Some shooters looked to develop whatever edge they could in the shooting sports and many believed that FLGRs, shok buffs, spring loaded guide rods, Group Grippers, etc. helped in that. Maybe some of it did. Some at least improved confidence which counts.
It should be noted that the military of no country went to their use. Even Colt's M45A1 did not use them. There is good reason for that.
In general the reasons given for their use come down to individual preference. One person here does not like the feel or "crunchy" sound of the recoil spring moving in the gun. Others like the weight of the tungsten FLGR in the gun. Another has replaced the traditional springs that the 1911 has used for over a century with flat springs and a thinner FLGR. The mistaken belief here is that the traditional springs are only good for 3,000-5,000 rounds. OK. These are mostly matters of feel, or belief. I can't knock 'em as that. Folks will make their choices.
Personally I never found them necessary. They are a hindrance to quick field stripping. They complicate, by a small bit, a simple thing.
tipoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jig-RvZr1OM
Again in this display video at about 1:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngdXOytZ2a4
IIRC FLGRs were introduced in the 1980s at a time when competitive shooting with raceguns began to take off. Bill Wilson was one of the first to introduce them. Some shooters looked to develop whatever edge they could in the shooting sports and many believed that FLGRs, shok buffs, spring loaded guide rods, Group Grippers, etc. helped in that. Maybe some of it did. Some at least improved confidence which counts.
It should be noted that the military of no country went to their use. Even Colt's M45A1 did not use them. There is good reason for that.
In general the reasons given for their use come down to individual preference. One person here does not like the feel or "crunchy" sound of the recoil spring moving in the gun. Others like the weight of the tungsten FLGR in the gun. Another has replaced the traditional springs that the 1911 has used for over a century with flat springs and a thinner FLGR. The mistaken belief here is that the traditional springs are only good for 3,000-5,000 rounds. OK. These are mostly matters of feel, or belief. I can't knock 'em as that. Folks will make their choices.
Personally I never found them necessary. They are a hindrance to quick field stripping. They complicate, by a small bit, a simple thing.
tipoc
here is a link to an xray of a 1911 showing the bowing taking place of the recoil spring that Iron Bottom mentions. Honestly, this is the first and best answer to a reason for using a FLGR even if its also not outside of its design intent to bow a little in that short space.
http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/kimber-1911-ray-gunz.jpg
Tipoc's excellent explanation sheds light on the reason manufacturers (remember the original question...) started including FLGRs in their production guns. Now wither or not this comes down to individual preference for general 1911 use, a competition race gun is not the same thing as as a general use gun (carry, home defense, plinking etc.) but its not uncommon for racing technology to trickle down into general use products.
and with that, I think we have an answer to my original question. After all these years the mystery is solved
http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/kimber-1911-ray-gunz.jpg
Tipoc's excellent explanation sheds light on the reason manufacturers (remember the original question...) started including FLGRs in their production guns. Now wither or not this comes down to individual preference for general 1911 use, a competition race gun is not the same thing as as a general use gun (carry, home defense, plinking etc.) but its not uncommon for racing technology to trickle down into general use products.
and with that, I think we have an answer to my original question. After all these years the mystery is solved
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Koda94 said:
Good grief!
The outside diameter of a FLGR is the same as that of a standard guide rod -- 0.330". The recoil spring has an outside diameter of 0.430" according to the reproduced blueprint I have. The wire diameter is .043", so that leaves the coil with an inside diameter of 0.344".
So even with a FLGR there's still a gap of .014" for the spring to bow. I don't think it can bow much more than that with a standard guide rod, due to the confined space in which it operates.