12-gauge pump or .357 lever action better for HD?

zxcvbob while i dont disagree with your statement about number 8 birdshot i will contest that in house most hallways and rooms are no longer than 10 yards. and at 10 yards no choke my #8 is a good enough pattern to be lethal.
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It isn't the pattern that is the problem. It is the lack of penetration. In bare jello at 10 FEET (not yards), #8 shot typically will not penetrate any deeper than 5" with most of the shot stopping by 3" - and that's jello.

In a real person, with clothes, a sternum, ribs, maybe a little more meat than the typical average male (Americans on average tend to be about 1" thicker than the global average), there are a lot of scenarios where the #8 shot isn't going to penetrate deep enough to force a physiological stop. It goes back to the momentum issue that 44AMP quoted above.

For comparison, less-lethal beanbag rounds are typically just #9 shot in a cloth bag. They use such light shot because it doesn't penetrate. However, both #8 shot and less-lethal can and have killed people, so you don't want to use them unless the situation justifies deadly force - and if the situation justifies deadly force, then #8 is a little light for my liking.
 
FYI. The shooter in the "wannabe" video was not trying to demonstrate tactical shotgunning. He was just function checking his new 590 Mariner. He loaded three at a time because the public range had a three round rule.
 
It isn't the pattern that is the problem. It is the lack of penetration.
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I call it the column of lead fallacy. On one side of this fallacy people will argue that smaller shot size doesn't matter - that it's as effective as #00 Buck or a slug because since the shot hasn't patterned out - it acts like a slug.

On the other side of the fallacy people will argue that larger shot size doesn't matter, that since the #1 or #00 pellets haven't spread out enough to make separate holes, the shot is going to act like a slug, and won't have the same effect if the shot pattern had spread out and perforated the assailant multiple times.

Both of these arguments are wrong.

When a load of #1 Buck hits a target, even if the shot has not patterned out yet, the pellets will quickly begin to travel along their own paths - creating 16 distinct wound channels (although some of these wound channels may intersect at some points). The pellets will also penetrate to about the same depth as they would if they were more spread out - which can be tested by firing something like Federal FLITECONTROL® versus something that has no cup or even a spreader wad.

When a load of birdshot hits a target, even if the shot has not patterned out yet, the pellets will quickly lose velocity, penetrate to relatively shallow depths, and will also penetrate to about the same depth as they would if the shot were more spread out.

Pattern does not effect penetration.

Penetration is dependent on the mass of each pellet. A slug will penetrate the most deeply, #00 Buck will penetrate more deeply than #1 Buck which will penetrate more deeply that BB or any bird shot, and it's not dependent of the shot pattern.

This also gets confused with the argument that if you are firing a tight pattern and your shot placement is less than optimal - a tight pattern will be a non-debilitating miss, whereas a wide pattern gives you a better chance of at least one pellet disrupting vital tissue - but that's a separate argument.
 
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Answer is chose the weapon you can hit with when you are under stress.
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Any shooter can shoot well with either weapon he chooses to practice with and become efficient.
So what's the answer.? The shotgun or .357.

Did you think you were going to get away with that cop out answer? :p
 
Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill? I dont believe it. But to each their own. I suppose this is the equivalent to 9mm vs 45acp in the shotgun world.
 
Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill?
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People have survived shots to the upper torso and even the head from 12ga loaded with light birdshot at distances closer than 5yds. Birdshot may penetrate deeply enough to force a physiological stop depending on the scenario; but it is less likely to do so than heavier shot.

As I mentioned earlier, at 10 feet the deepest penetrating #8 shot is around 5", with most stopped by 3" - and that is in bare jello. Are attackers typically naked invertebrates where you live? Will 3-5" make it to their vitals from every conceivable angle? If so, #8 shot may work just fine for you. If on the other hand, they might be homo sapiens, I'm sure some measuring tape can show you how little penetration is left in #8 shot if something like an arm gets in the way.
 
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Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill? I dont believe it. But to each their own. I suppose this is the equivalent to 9mm vs 45acp in the shotgun world.
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Of course it can kill. But that's the wrong question. You should be asking whether a shot to the torso will stop someone *reliably*, not just with a lucky shot. OTOH, if you plan on only shooting them in the eyes, skeet loads will probably do just fine. (I'm not that good a shot, not even at 5 yards)

I'm sure some measuring tape can show you how little penetration is left in #8 shot if something like an arm gets in the way.
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It still may effect a psychological stop. Imagine how much damage it's going to do to that arm. I still wouldn't want to count on it.
 
Bird shot will work very well for the tactical situations it's advocates have created in their own heads.

It must, since it seems to have a fair amount of fans.

Add in the real world, reality based tactical problem ivolving Bubba and his friends using your favorite armchair or other furniture, etc. for cover-- that bird shot won't defeat-- then it doesn't compare to 00 buck, which is proven and uncontroversial with re: to it's effectiveness on Bubba the intruder.

Or any other type of feral man.:D

Never understood those who go to birdshot to reduce the danger to members of their own family (and other innocents) and then try to tell us how lethal it is against an assailant.:confused:
 
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when i was a teenager my next door neighbor shot a guy standing in his driveway (aprox.30 yards)from his front door with #8 birdshot from a 22inch barreled remington special field 1100.and he was drt.
 
when i was a teenager my next door neighbor shot a guy standing in his driveway (aprox.30 yards)from his front door with #8 birdshot from a 22inch barreled remington special field 1100.and he was drt.
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Interesting. I've killed many a quail and larger chukar partridge with much larger #6 shot, and found, with regularity, shot that didn't penetrte the 2nd layer of skin.

The same shot will not normally penetrate thru a pheasant, Sage or Blue grouse at 30 yds.
 
DRT = Dead Right There ?

A lot of stories about people getting hit with birdshot full-on, from the side and in the back from hunting accidents who not only survived but walked out to get treatment.

I have a friend who took a load of #8 in a hunting accident (ND from a fellow hunter really). He was shot in the lower calf & foot. None of the shot exited out the other side, and it wasn't because it hit bone. None of the shot pnetrated that deeply. I think the deepest pellet went 2 inches, and that pellet is still in there.

Even without the anecdotal stories - it's easy enough to figure out by shooting it into ordnance gelatin.

These results are in gel that really isn't too firm, generally there was deeper penetration in these blocks than normal:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

But even with these blocks, you can see that #8 stops at 4" and it hasn't even hit a rib cage. One pellet makes it a paltry 5"

I would say that the 12ga makes a potent HD weapon, with the caveat that it's loaded with the correct ammo. You can take this very potent home defense weapon and reduce it's effectiveness tremendously by loading it with birdshot.
 
Nnobby45 - thanks for posting both videos.

The first one (today, 4/23/12 at 1:00pm CDT) is someone shooting an AR15 .223 using an EoTech sight. I liked watching it a lot.

The wannbe video was interesting too...I now know who invented the F- word and the S-word. (Well, maybe not invented it, but he might have perfected it.) That said, the Mossberg Mariner looks like it will shoot.
 
Given your two choices for HD, I would pick the 12 gauge. The shotgun would be easier to defend your house against several armed intruders (with one shot) than the lever action.

I like the ammo selection with the 12 gauge and can even be fitted with a light.

Good luck,

Jeff
 
tazbigdog said:
Given your two choices for HD, I would pick the 12 gauge. The shotgun would be easier to defend your house against several armed intruders (with one shot)...
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How do you figure that? Are you aware that at across the room distances a shotgun pattern is only a few inches in diameter?
 
The birdshot will eliminate many people as it forms a column of incredible destructive power and zaps through the first guy and then spreads out to a cloud of lethality.

Or when they hear the rack, they will flee in abject terror.

That's how! We all know that.

The answer to the question - already stated - is the weapon you train with and shoot best. Either would be just fine.

But train with both, perhaps.
 
yes dead right there, most of the shot hit him in the throat/ upper chest and dropped him where he stood
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Out of curiosity, how did the shooter fair with the justice system after shooting a man in his driveway?
 
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