"1 MOA, all day long"

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The most important factor

All this talk about the rifles but little focus on the shooter! How many folks really understand how to shoot consistently accurate? Do you understand parallax and how to adjust your scope for it, do you take the glare off your iron sights, do you pull the trigger in between heartbeats, can you read wind and mirage, do you load the bipod correctly, is your cheek weld always the same, have you established your natural point of aim, are the stock screws torqued to the proper setting from when you cleaned it the last time.... get the idea?

There are many variables that go into shooting MOA and smaller that have to be considered before you even talk about the rifle itself.
I see so many folks who forget or have never been taught the fundamentals of basic rifle marksmanship and then get frustrated that their rifles 'won't shoot'. :rolleyes:

Here's a related article from a while back that's worth reading:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/bugholes-from-bipod/
 
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a "1 MOA rifle all day long." is not spectacular at all. In fact, I'd consider it to be a requirement for most of my shooting. If I can't count on 1 MOA, I want a new gun

Right on Brian. I have found there are 2 different groups out there. Your deer hunter and your target shooter. Two totally different worlds between them. Most times what a deer hunter is happy with a target shooter will go home and back to the work table. As i stated before 1 inch at 100 yards is not impressive

Are we going into match type rifles or match shooting vs average type hunting or varmint rifles

Very good point Old Roper. I have 7 rifles now,only 2 of which are not either comp barrels or heavy barreled rifles. 10 rounds in one minute does not heat them up very much at all.
 
4runnerman, I don't disagree with you but you left out one important group of shooters like me.

All my deer/elk rifles had I had them build with bull barrels etc I could of used them for match shooting. Lot of hunters and varmint shooter spend money chasing accuracy. Myself if I only got MOA from one of my hunting rifles I'd be having good talk with gunsmith.

I seen guys at the club come with factory rifle and best they may do is 2" maybe little larger group but they shoot that every time and only different between him and me is price of the toys.

My varmint partner shoot some pretty nice varmint rifles but all his big game rifles are factory.
 
@nate45 and 4runnerman

I would say a service rifle in NRA high-power is better designed to mitigate heat than a sporter-barrel hunting rifle. In High Power (just one form of rifle competition) you usually just shoot one rapid fire string at a time right?

Also, no one adressed the fact that the air temp. and temp. of the barrel will change POI.

I live in Phoenix, AZ and I can attest that if you shoot 10 rounds in a row with a sporter rifle (in a short period of time) the POI will shift from the barrel heat. Maybe if you do your shooting in 30 degree temps things are different.
 
I guess I'd be sceptical of claims for "all day long" as a function of the type of rifle. That is, a pencil barrel or a light sporter is very unlikely to be capable of ten-shot groups of one MOA or better. Even once, much less "all day long". :)

Sceptical, not automatically hollering, "...pants on fire!" :)
 
"anyone who really consider 3 shots groups"

I know several, each one a successful deer hunter who figures they're never going to shoot more than 2 shots at a time; so if a rifle will shoot 3 in a row accurately it's good to go. Even that's sort of an afterthought, their primary concern is the cold bore accuracy.

Otherwise I think the larger the group, the more useful the info. I shoot a lot of 5-shot groups with some of my .22 rifles because that's the mag size.

John
 
FiveInADime

Set up your rifle at the bench and take an hour to shoot ten shots if you want, do it over a week for all I care. Just shoot all ten shots at the same target. Then measure ALL the shots. Do that several times. Average them. It will be a very good indicator of whether your rifle, your load and you are capable of consistent 1 MOA groups.

One MOA and less is nice, but in no way necessary for a hunting rifle. To test my hunting rifles I shoot two shots fairly rapidly. If they are in an inch and a half circle at one hundred yards, they are plenty good for hunting.

However, if I shoot four are five two shot groups(if it is a 'group' even) in a row and all the shots from every group are touching, which is often the case with my rifles. I don't then claim that its a half MOA rifle, that can shoot half MOA groups all day long.
 
johnbt said:
I know several, each one a successful deer hunter who figures they're never going to shoot more than 2 shots at a time; so if a rifle will shoot 3 in a row accurately it's good to go. Even that's sort of an afterthought, their primary concern is the cold bore accuracy.

Otherwise I think the larger the group, the more useful the info. I shoot a lot of 5-shot groups with some of my .22 rifles because that's the mag size.
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Yes, but that's suitability for a particular purpose not so much the capability of the gun. I do the same though, rarely shooting more than 3 shot groups because I don't really CARE what the theoretical ability of the rifle happens to be.

However, I have shot a lot of 3 shot groups and 10 of them makes a 30 shot group. I know the gun will shoot very well. It easily shoots 1/2 MOA 3 or 5 shot groups, and is easily at or under 3/4 for 30 shot aggregates.

I also know that it will very, very likely put any bullet within 1/4MOA of the POA (which is 1/2 MOA) at any given moment and that's all I care to know, in the end. Any woodchuck I can reasonably see, is going to be dead if I do my part. It's not the guns fault if I miss.

That's what it comes down to for me. Confidence. I want to know it's my fault if I miss.

I consider the aggregate of 10 3 shot groups from different days into one 30 shot group to be a much better indicator than even 1 30 shot group. It eliminates other variables, such as me having a bad day or wind or weather from one sitting and it's a lot more fun to shoot than 30 rounds all in one day. That would take me like 4 hours.
 
lots of variations to work with.


If you are shooting a gun all day, I also take you are at least putting 100 rounds downrange. In 100 rounds I would hardly believe they will all fit into under moa.

There are so many things that can go wrong.

No one can make perfect shots all day long in hundreds of rounds without at least contributing some level of shooter error himself.

No one can dope the wind precisely all day long either under variable wind conditions.
 
When I brought up the subject of three shot target I said
I love the folks that show me a 3 shot target (their best of course) and try to convince me that their gun is all that and a bag of chips too.
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If you were to show me 5 or more we now start to have a valid data set to work with. Let us assume you claim all targets were fired in the same session. If you tell me that you are holding you crosshairs dead center on the target for each group, the targets were at the same distance, and some groups are 3 o'clock from center, some at 11 o'clock from center, etc. then I count the aggregate grouping of all targets based on target dead center. Now the extreme edges of the 3 o'clock and 11 o'clock, etc. become my measuring points.

If I overlay each target onto a master and mark the groups so I have all 15+ shots on one piece of paper, we begin to see the bigger picture. Singular three shot groups may make MOA but the aggregate may fall well short.

This goes to what several have commented on earlier. There is a big difference in the gun itself being able to be sub. MOA consistently and the shooter behind the gun being sub MOA consistently.
 
1stmar said:
So what percentage of shooters can routinely shoot 1moa? 1/2moa? And under what conditions...
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If the gun will do it, shooting MOA at 100 yards is not difficult.

I'm confident that I can shoot under 1 MOA at 100 yards, with a good gun under reasonable conditions, on any given day. Not that anyone wouldn't screw up a shot here and there but MOA isn't really terribly amazing.

1/2 MOA is a lot harder. That takes a good gun and a good shooter, to do that all the time.

Anything 1/4-ish is truly exceptional. There are certainly guns and shooters who do it but there's a lot more that can't than can.
 
The term "all day long" is a hyperbole, and any normal person with a functioning brain will understand that... it is like saying the barrel was red hot (was it really glowing red? no), it is like saying a bullet hits like a ton of bricks (really? no not really).

I am not a good shooter. When I go to the range, I see some good shooters, and I hope someday to be one of them. But I routinely shoot 1" 100 yard groups with my plain-jane-totally-stock weatherby 243. I shoot off of a sandbag under the forestock, I don't use one under the butt. Magnification is 3-9X. This not a high end set up, it is not even a mid-range set up. When I say "routinely", I mean that out of 6 targets, 3 or 4 targest will be 1" or less. If the gun can do it on 4 out of 6 targets, it COULD have done it on 6 out of 6 targets, but the shooter was not up to the task.

The right way to define group size (but no one does it this way) is to use the methods used by artillery and air-launched weapons... things like 2 sigma probability of hit (also called the 95% radius), or Circular Error Probable.
 
I would say a service rifle in NRA high-power is better designed to mitigate heat than a sporter-barrel hunting rifle. In High Power (just one form of rifle competition) you usually just shoot one rapid fire string at a time right?

fiveinadime- NRA-1000 yard- 25 shots in 20 minutes. Lots of time there,but i have never seen any one including me take more than 3 to 5 minutes to do this. Yes barrel is hot to a point,but accuracy is still very good.

No one can dope the wind precisely all day long either under variable wind conditions

Come and take it--We are talking 100 yards here. Unless we are talking 30 MPH winds there is not to much doping the wind going on here. At a greater distance yes for sure- Which is still one i will be working on for a long time to come. At 100 yards i have shot in some pretty gusty winds and it does not make to much of a difference on bullet,Maybe 1/4 inch or so, Still well with in 1 inch groups.


As for the Term all day long-When i go out on a Sat or SUn to Casselton rifle range with the 223- I will shoot 150 to 250 rounds a day. At 100 yards i will have an occasional flier here and there,but 99 plus % will be inside a 1 inch circle easily. No- Im not Annie Oklianny,but we are talking 1 inch. That is a large target for 100 yards
 
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I'm like Art, and I do agree with most replies, however in this "day" of all day long just how many shots must be made?
I can take my bone stock Savage 110, .270 win., and shoot most of the day, but I got tons of other stuff the wife says to do... What do you do?:rolleyes:
 
but I got tons of other stuff the wife says to do... What do you do

Like mow the grass,shopping,grocery store,ect ect:D Me- I am out at range in summer by 5 AM. I can most of the time be done by 2or 3 PM. Still leaves most of the day to get those other icky things done. I have become obsessed with this shooting thing, I don't hunt any more so I just shoot paper now.

On a side note--- How many here shoot at Casselton Range in North Dakota?
 
So what percentage of shooters can routinely shoot 1moa? 1/2moa? And under what conditions...
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No Lead Sled, bag of shot between you and your shoulder, or Past recoil pad.

And I'll add what caliber and platform?
Caliber 375 or over. Bolt or Single shot under 10 lbs. There are quite a few rifles that meet these criteria. For example a Ruger #1 in 458 Lott. They weigh in @ 9 lbs. They get to be quite painful to shoot fairly quickly. The gun might be capable but very few people are after a few shots.

So to the OP: There are enough guns out there that can. There are probably a lot fewer people behind those rifles that can. It's not the tools fault that the wielder is not capable of using it to the full advantage.
 
So to the OP: There are enough guns out there that can. There are probably a lot fewer people behind those rifles that can. It's not the tools fault that the wielder is not capable of using it to the full advantage

BINGO. Plus 1
 
My Tikka T3 (chambered in 30-06) will shoot 1/2 to 3/4 MOA consistently with 150 grain Federal Powershock. The only things that aren't stock on that rifle are the scope, mounts, and bipod.

Whether or not *I* can shoot that well... that's another story.

Take it FWIW. I know that my rifle's more accurate than I am, even with factory ammo.
 
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