arizona98tj
New member
Since this post was in the semi-auto rifle forum, was the 1MOA all day specific to just autoloaders....or did it include bolt guns? I noticed some comments were about bolt guns.
"1 MOA, all day long"
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I love the folks that show me a 3 shot target (their best of course) and try to convince me that their gun is all that and a bag of chips too. Just because it will do that at 100 yards does not mean it will hold at 200, 300, or farther out. I've seen .8 MOA at 100 yards go to 2 or more MOA at 200 when fired from a sled due to one or more variables.
My Rem 700 can drop all three touching at 100 yards; did it firing with a tree branch as my rest dialing in my scope. I doubt many people could do it for 10 rounds though.....it is after all a 375 RUM.
OTOH. with the right ammo, one of my 10/22's can make sub MOA at 100 yards consistently. My last build...I haven't shot enough ammo types through it to find the "golden bullet(s)" yet.
My Rem 700 can drop all three touching at 100 yards; did it firing with a tree branch as my rest dialing in my scope. I doubt many people could do it for 10 rounds though.....it is after all a 375 RUM.
OTOH. with the right ammo, one of my 10/22's can make sub MOA at 100 yards consistently. My last build...I haven't shot enough ammo types through it to find the "golden bullet(s)" yet.
I often hear if it's not a five shot group it's just a string .
What if your gun only holds 4 rounds ? is a 4 shot group good enough ?
What about those guns that only hold 3 rounds or even 1 do you just keep loading till you hit five ?
How long do you get to shoot this group ?
Can you let the barrel cool a bit then finish . i.e. shoot 3 let it cool down a little then shoot the last 2 .
I alway thought you must shoot them all in a row . Maybe not fast but lets say 5 shots in 20 to 25 sec for it to count as a group .
I also don't think it's fare to ask a gun to do something it was never designed to do . A light weight sporter barrel was not designed to shoot 5 shoots rather quickly . As the barrel heats up the 4th and 5th shots are bound to open up a bit .
These target here tell me my ruger American is a sub MOA rifle . Who says yes and why , who says no and why . They were shot on different days at different times with different lot # ammo . Total time for all three shot , no more then 30 sec
What if your gun only holds 4 rounds ? is a 4 shot group good enough ?
What about those guns that only hold 3 rounds or even 1 do you just keep loading till you hit five ?
How long do you get to shoot this group ?
Can you let the barrel cool a bit then finish . i.e. shoot 3 let it cool down a little then shoot the last 2 .
I alway thought you must shoot them all in a row . Maybe not fast but lets say 5 shots in 20 to 25 sec for it to count as a group .
I also don't think it's fare to ask a gun to do something it was never designed to do . A light weight sporter barrel was not designed to shoot 5 shoots rather quickly . As the barrel heats up the 4th and 5th shots are bound to open up a bit .
These target here tell me my ruger American is a sub MOA rifle . Who says yes and why , who says no and why . They were shot on different days at different times with different lot # ammo . Total time for all three shot , no more then 30 sec
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When I shoot for groups out of my sporter weight 700 ADL, I've got 2 minutes *at least* between each shot to allow the gun to "settle" again to the same conditions as I shot it in the first shot. More like 3-5 mins. I did shoot one group in as quick succession as I could accurately and and it was sub MOA for 3 shots but the last two started to open up. Like was said, I don't expect a sporter weight to be able to hold A tight group when shot in quick succession. It's not what it was built for. Further more, where that first cold bore shot goes is what is most critical to me, as this is a hunting rifle.
I have three rifles that I have just tweaked enough tp get less than 1MOA.
All three have handloads designed for them, a couple have multiple loads that they will shoot under moa easily.
I cant shoot moa, offhand at 100 yds, morelike two moa.
Off a rest my rifles are nice shooters for the money, and all three are merely hunting rifles shooting only hunting bullets.
Id take that bet, if there was one, that my rifles will shoot under moa all day.
All three have handloads designed for them, a couple have multiple loads that they will shoot under moa easily.
I cant shoot moa, offhand at 100 yds, morelike two moa.
Off a rest my rifles are nice shooters for the money, and all three are merely hunting rifles shooting only hunting bullets.
Id take that bet, if there was one, that my rifles will shoot under moa all day.
When I hear someone say "all day long", I immediately recognize that that individual may be giving a heartfelt impression of his rifle's performance but he doesn't have any real data on which his statement is based. It could mean his rifle performs with a particular best load, or when the shooter is having a good day, or it could be just an idle boast.
In any case, the statement is next to worthless.
Even the best shooting rifles have some ammos and some hand loads that they don't shoot well. I would bet someone could find a load and a bullet type that even the best rifle wouldn't shoot under 1 MOA on average.
In addition, even the best shooters can have an off day or let a couple of rounds mess up a good group. Those groups count when you speak about 'all day long".
So unless the speaker clearly qualifies the conditions and limits that apply to his statement, "all day long" doesn't work for me.
In any case, the statement is next to worthless.
Even the best shooting rifles have some ammos and some hand loads that they don't shoot well. I would bet someone could find a load and a bullet type that even the best rifle wouldn't shoot under 1 MOA on average.
In addition, even the best shooters can have an off day or let a couple of rounds mess up a good group. Those groups count when you speak about 'all day long".
So unless the speaker clearly qualifies the conditions and limits that apply to his statement, "all day long" doesn't work for me.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
What does a load that the rifle doesn't shoot as well have to do with anything? That doesn't even make sense. That's WHY we handload, sort brass, neck turn, check runout, buy expensive dies....
OF COURSE, the rifle doesn't shoot any round you put in it to less than MOA.
If that were the qualification for a sub-MOA rifle, there wouldn't be a single one in existence.
OF COURSE, the rifle doesn't shoot any round you put in it to less than MOA.
If that were the qualification for a sub-MOA rifle, there wouldn't be a single one in existence.
Edward429451
Moderator
When I hear someone say that I think they are giving their impression of the rifle and that while they may be spending an entire day at the range, but they are most certainly shooting other guns and letting the rifle cool and so forth.
This is not necessarily a lie, but spoken from a practical position and not a literal one.
This is not necessarily a lie, but spoken from a practical position and not a literal one.
Brian,
My point was very much the same as yours but from a different perspective.
I would suspect that most people take the "under 1 MOA all day long" as a boast intended to give the impression that all the groups will always be under 1 MOA.
Based upon your posts over the years, I recognize that you have a very wide range of experience and you naturally include that knowledge in your interpretation of the " all day long" statement. I'm not sure everyone does.
I was trying to say that even a sub-MOA rifle doesn't shoot necessarily sub-MOA all day long and, almost guaranteed, doesn't shoot every load the same.
That is indeed why we hand load and tune loads for performance.
A sub-MOA achieves that 'on average' and even within a particular load there can be anomalies.
My point was very much the same as yours but from a different perspective.
I would suspect that most people take the "under 1 MOA all day long" as a boast intended to give the impression that all the groups will always be under 1 MOA.
Based upon your posts over the years, I recognize that you have a very wide range of experience and you naturally include that knowledge in your interpretation of the " all day long" statement. I'm not sure everyone does.
I was trying to say that even a sub-MOA rifle doesn't shoot necessarily sub-MOA all day long and, almost guaranteed, doesn't shoot every load the same.
That is indeed why we hand load and tune loads for performance.
A sub-MOA achieves that 'on average' and even within a particular load there can be anomalies.
4runnerman
New member
I think we are over analizing this statement. We as a group can read between the lines here. Im sure he meant shoot 5 or 6 rounds and cool between groups. This is a very easy statement to believe. I have many rifles that will do that. In fact I don't have one that won't do that. I would think at some point in time the barrel will need to be cleaned to maintain the accuracy level. 100 yards and 1 inch groups is not by any means impressive at all.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Given how many decades I've been load-testing and doing sight-ins from my benchrest, I take it for granted that I can hold a rifle to its best performance almost all the time. I have bad days, of course, but not very many.
I've had some rifles which were not at all picky about what load would be very much tight-group. Others? There was some frustration in finally finding "the load".
"All day long", most likely, just means "reliably". That is, you go out, shoot a group, and it makes your heart all warm and runny. Good. You go out again and again you get that tight group. Same for a day/week/month later.
Away from competition, I don't really see why somebody would spend all day shooting group after group after group. I figure, go shoot a coyote or something.
I've had some rifles which were not at all picky about what load would be very much tight-group. Others? There was some frustration in finally finding "the load".
"All day long", most likely, just means "reliably". That is, you go out, shoot a group, and it makes your heart all warm and runny. Good. You go out again and again you get that tight group. Same for a day/week/month later.
Away from competition, I don't really see why somebody would spend all day shooting group after group after group. I figure, go shoot a coyote or something.
FiveInADime
New member
I saw an old man (80+) shoot probably 15 <0.25" groups in a row at 50 yards with a Winchester M52 with a matching vintage Unertl scope. I asked him why he doesn't shoot in benchrest competition and he almost yelled at me... Something like,"I don't have time to be where someone else wants me to be, I do things on my own schedule!" Now that's "ALL DAY LONG" performance! Pretty cool. If only my centerfire rifles could be that good!
When I shoot 3 slow 5-shot groups in a row with a particular rifle at 100 yards and they are all sub-MOA I think I can comfortably say,"This is a sub-MOA rifle". That rarely happens, but it does happen with 2 or 3 of my rifles, on occasion. I have never used the phrase,"All day long" describing the accuracy of my guns. In fact, I always raise an eyebrow when I here that and think of the guy with a Mosin Nagant with a Walmart scope that is supposedly a 1/4"MOA shooter, "All day long".
When I shoot 3 slow 5-shot groups in a row with a particular rifle at 100 yards and they are all sub-MOA I think I can comfortably say,"This is a sub-MOA rifle". That rarely happens, but it does happen with 2 or 3 of my rifles, on occasion. I have never used the phrase,"All day long" describing the accuracy of my guns. In fact, I always raise an eyebrow when I here that and think of the guy with a Mosin Nagant with a Walmart scope that is supposedly a 1/4"MOA shooter, "All day long".
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
When the manufacturer says the RIFLE will shoot MOA all day long, they don't mean in any shooters hands. They mean from a lead sled or at least a competent shooter.
They don't mean with WWB, they mean with Hornady match ammunition.
There are a whole lot of rifles designs being produced that will shoot sub MOA 3 shot groups at a very high repeatability from a rest. That is the one measure I give modern production an edge over older production. Good thing shooting subMOA isn;t high on the list for me with most rifles. Rests are too heavy to carry in the woods anyways.
They don't mean with WWB, they mean with Hornady match ammunition.
There are a whole lot of rifles designs being produced that will shoot sub MOA 3 shot groups at a very high repeatability from a rest. That is the one measure I give modern production an edge over older production. Good thing shooting subMOA isn;t high on the list for me with most rifles. Rests are too heavy to carry in the woods anyways.
If I build a big game hunting rifle that is 1 moa 5 shots all day long, I built it too heavy.
1 moa average 3 shots is as heavy as I want to build them.
But the varmint rifles I would like at .5 moa 5 shots.
Heavy gun, light bullet.
The trouble is, when and where is the wind low enough to test that?
If I get inland away from the ocean a hundred miles, and then find flat country, and then shoot at sun up.
I do go there and do that, but once or twice a year. Near Seattle with ranges opening at noon, i can count on 6 mph gusty winds.
No one, not even really good rifles cleaned every 15 shots, can do 1 moa all day long in that wind.
I know a number of guys that test rifles at 50 yards, to reduce the effect of the wind.
1 moa average 3 shots is as heavy as I want to build them.
But the varmint rifles I would like at .5 moa 5 shots.
Heavy gun, light bullet.
The trouble is, when and where is the wind low enough to test that?
If I get inland away from the ocean a hundred miles, and then find flat country, and then shoot at sun up.
I do go there and do that, but once or twice a year. Near Seattle with ranges opening at noon, i can count on 6 mph gusty winds.
No one, not even really good rifles cleaned every 15 shots, can do 1 moa all day long in that wind.
I know a number of guys that test rifles at 50 yards, to reduce the effect of the wind.
Tempest 455
New member
For clarification: All day long is certainly a misused term. In our case, our .308 will shoot .5 MOA out to 400 yards conditions permitting. The rifle is more than capable, up to the shooter and the wind. If the conditions are good, yes on most occasions we can maintain that. My 14 year old son is a better shot than I am and we both have done around 2" 5 round groups as 400 yards.
We shoot Black Hills 168 or 175g and shoot off a bipod and sand bag. Here is the rifle, range and representative target.
We shoot Black Hills 168 or 175g and shoot off a bipod and sand bag. Here is the rifle, range and representative target.
4runnerman
New member
Tempest- What brand rifle is that..One sweet looking unit there.
Dearhunter61
New member
How many rounds are you talking about?
Are you talking about 3, 5, or 10 shot groups? I know I read a lot about everyone shooting 1" moa but frankly seldom see anyone shooting that well at the range. I know I read an article where a military sniper using a lead sled shooting a bunch of different new hunting rifles using premium ammo did not consistently shoot 1" moa with them. He did about half of them to MOA and the others were only a little more than that but he was a mil sniper. It showed me that an inch and a half at 100yds is pretty good shooting. If you are talking about only 3 shots I think that is more doable but when you go to 5 and then 10 shot groups 1" MOA is much more difficult.
Are you talking about 3, 5, or 10 shot groups? I know I read a lot about everyone shooting 1" moa but frankly seldom see anyone shooting that well at the range. I know I read an article where a military sniper using a lead sled shooting a bunch of different new hunting rifles using premium ammo did not consistently shoot 1" moa with them. He did about half of them to MOA and the others were only a little more than that but he was a mil sniper. It showed me that an inch and a half at 100yds is pretty good shooting. If you are talking about only 3 shots I think that is more doable but when you go to 5 and then 10 shot groups 1" MOA is much more difficult.
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