Zoning Laws: Can anyone say Communist!!
- Thread starter lg_mouth
- Start date
toybox99615
New member
after the fact laws
Billca I agree the after you own for a while and then the laws are changed is a problem. A lot of the time its actually the electrical, plumbing and building codes that create those problems. Banks and home lenders along with insurance companies are the one that require the new codes be implemented by the municipality to insure they are taking a lower risk on the loans.
One thing you have to make sure of is having your homeowners policy cover replacement cost if you should have a disaster. And the fine print needs to provide the replacement cost includes the building codes in effect when the damages happens.
My point originally was those who don't even realize there are codes. Here 30% plus of the homes are bought by military personnel who never read anything until after they buy. Then as soon as they decide its time to make a change, add a shop building or add an appartment they find out about the rules and restriction. The classis line is: the real estate agent said I could when he sold us the place. Believe me here we have few building rules and they get changed ever couple of years when the national codes change.
Billca I agree the after you own for a while and then the laws are changed is a problem. A lot of the time its actually the electrical, plumbing and building codes that create those problems. Banks and home lenders along with insurance companies are the one that require the new codes be implemented by the municipality to insure they are taking a lower risk on the loans.
One thing you have to make sure of is having your homeowners policy cover replacement cost if you should have a disaster. And the fine print needs to provide the replacement cost includes the building codes in effect when the damages happens.
My point originally was those who don't even realize there are codes. Here 30% plus of the homes are bought by military personnel who never read anything until after they buy. Then as soon as they decide its time to make a change, add a shop building or add an appartment they find out about the rules and restriction. The classis line is: the real estate agent said I could when he sold us the place. Believe me here we have few building rules and they get changed ever couple of years when the national codes change.
Just have to jump into this one. The city of Sacramento now tells you when you can/can't use your fireplace/woodburning stove, no matter how cold it is and that's your way method of heating your home. I'm glad I live up the hill from that place.
Junk on the property? That's one good thing about zoning laws. Same with weeds/debris that can spread fires. For the common good. If the zoning laws suck then you either work to change them or move out of the area. Yup, that sucks too but your "neighbors" voted for the people who made the suggested zoning law changes. Vote the bastards out and put better people in their place.
Building inspectors? I've met far too many of them due to my line of work. Many are good people who see their jobs as a way to save people from themselves. However, there are plenty of them who get off on having a badge and love to throw their weight around. Finally, they can push someone around under the color of authority. They can be VERY petty people.
The building codes were written for a reason: to save lives in a variety of fashions. I put a hot tub in many years ago and did not get a permit. But, I did build it per code because I sure didn't want to kill someone with a bad electrical installation.
The light bulbs? The Peoples Republic of California was one step ahead of the US Congress/Pres. Bush in requiring the new bulbs by 2012, as I recall. Now, we'll have more mercury in the waste stream because the majority of people will thrown the bad ones in the trash, rather than send them to the proper facility. Did you know we can't throw batteries in the trash anymore here in CA? Yup, your flashlight batteries have to taken to a special pick up area.
To sum it up: we've gone over the lip and there's no climbing back up. Screwed, blued and tattooed.
:barf:
Junk on the property? That's one good thing about zoning laws. Same with weeds/debris that can spread fires. For the common good. If the zoning laws suck then you either work to change them or move out of the area. Yup, that sucks too but your "neighbors" voted for the people who made the suggested zoning law changes. Vote the bastards out and put better people in their place.
Building inspectors? I've met far too many of them due to my line of work. Many are good people who see their jobs as a way to save people from themselves. However, there are plenty of them who get off on having a badge and love to throw their weight around. Finally, they can push someone around under the color of authority. They can be VERY petty people.
The building codes were written for a reason: to save lives in a variety of fashions. I put a hot tub in many years ago and did not get a permit. But, I did build it per code because I sure didn't want to kill someone with a bad electrical installation.
The light bulbs? The Peoples Republic of California was one step ahead of the US Congress/Pres. Bush in requiring the new bulbs by 2012, as I recall. Now, we'll have more mercury in the waste stream because the majority of people will thrown the bad ones in the trash, rather than send them to the proper facility. Did you know we can't throw batteries in the trash anymore here in CA? Yup, your flashlight batteries have to taken to a special pick up area.
To sum it up: we've gone over the lip and there's no climbing back up. Screwed, blued and tattooed.
:barf:Marko Kloos
Inactive
Not to equal zoning laws with fascism, but I want to remind you that Hitler was legitimately elected, too, in the national Reichstag elections of 1933, with 43.9% of the popular vote. Does that mean that the Enabling Act he passed right afterwards was not a dictatorial seizure of power?
JuanCarlos
New member
True, but IIRC these bulbs actually contain less mercury than would have been released by a coal-firing plant providing the difference in energy over the bulb's lifetime. Of course, then it's a matter of whether you want it in the air or in the groundwater; but at least with CFL's people have the option of disposing of them properly.
Of course it was. But I believe that was (setting aside the tone of the time, which obviously influenced things) passed by the parliament rather than by Hitler himself, no? So while the end result was to hand power to a dictator, oddly this was achieved quite democratically (one of the reasons direct and/or absolute democracy isn't always such a grand idea). Which, since as you said zoning laws and building codes do not equate to fascism, means this bears very little relevance.
My city decided a few years ago to "update" its regulations to include, among other things, specifc wattage of the light bulb required in everyone's hall light fixture. The residents didn't vote on this directly; it just was included in a revised residential code which I assume the city council voted on. I know some regulations are needed, but this borders on overly intrusive, IMO. I guess I need to move to the boonies!
DonR101395
New member
That's what I did, but the county still gets you
My idiot neighbor has resurrected a City of Detroit streetlight in his back yard. Of course, the bulb is not "shielded" as required by local law so he lights up my yard, deck, dining room, living room, hallway, kitchen and bedroom with his "light trespass" and "light pollution". My wife can read on our deck ay 11:00p.m., it's that bright.
Local officials seem inept and powerless, so I've given my lawyer a $3,500.00 retainer and will probably spend another $3,500.00 with him. Plus we need to hire an "expert witness" which will probably be several thousand more.
Keep your light off my property. Thank God for zoning laws.
Kowboy
Local officials seem inept and powerless, so I've given my lawyer a $3,500.00 retainer and will probably spend another $3,500.00 with him. Plus we need to hire an "expert witness" which will probably be several thousand more.
Keep your light off my property. Thank God for zoning laws.
Kowboy
I don't think any of this is zoning.
It sounds more like Codes and Regulations, not if something is zoned residential, commercial, agriculture, heavy industrial etc...
Yes, some places will tell you what colors are allowed if you want to paint your house.
The new fluorescent light bulbs actually contain mercury in them so don't go breaking them for fun.
:barf:
It sounds more like Codes and Regulations, not if something is zoned residential, commercial, agriculture, heavy industrial etc...
Yes, some places will tell you what colors are allowed if you want to paint your house.
The new fluorescent light bulbs actually contain mercury in them so don't go breaking them for fun.
:barf:
Limeyfellow
New member
I just be happy if they ruled around here that all security lights have to be put on a sensor. They have no shielding around here and they all put them really high above the houses so it doesn't shine in their windows, but blind me. There have been day dreams of me shooting the buggers out so I can telescope in peace.
Fascism is not as far off as it might seem
Fascism and Naziism are socialist forms of government. So is Communism. The basic differences is in the names they use for their leaders, and their international goals. The Nazis were National Socialists. Soviet Communists were international socialists.
The zoning laws and building codes are a result of the blending of capitalist and socialist philosophies. Capitalists want to protect and make the most of their investments, and since social codes generally prevent them from excluding "those people" (whoever they are) from their neighborhoods, they regulate the appearance of all the properties, so as not to suffer "damage" to their own property values from someone who doesn't keep their property up to meet the self imposed "standards" of the community.
The socialist part comes in with all the codes and rules that "protect" us from ourselves. My personal opinion is that if you choose to live in an old cardboard box (choose to, not have to), then you should be allowed to do so, on your own property. Being contrary by nature, I happen to like weeds and junk cars for lawn ornaments, tends to keep folks thinking I don't have anything worth bothering with.
It is the creeping incrementalism of the bureaucracy then has gotten us to where we are now. Every time a new level of oversight is added, or the management changes, new rules are added, so that those in charge can justify their positions, so they can be seen as "doing something".
It is the same principle that has gotten us the gun laws we have today. Someone claims loudly that there is a problem (which may or maynot be true), and those in authority rush to "do something" (right or wrong), so they will be seen as caring and effective, and so retain their jobs, furthering their enjoyment of their pathetic little lives, and imposing more and more restrictions of the rest of us, in a vain attempt to prove to themselves that they are something that they will actually never be, free men!
Sorry for the rant - not
Fascism and Naziism are socialist forms of government. So is Communism. The basic differences is in the names they use for their leaders, and their international goals. The Nazis were National Socialists. Soviet Communists were international socialists.
The zoning laws and building codes are a result of the blending of capitalist and socialist philosophies. Capitalists want to protect and make the most of their investments, and since social codes generally prevent them from excluding "those people" (whoever they are) from their neighborhoods, they regulate the appearance of all the properties, so as not to suffer "damage" to their own property values from someone who doesn't keep their property up to meet the self imposed "standards" of the community.
The socialist part comes in with all the codes and rules that "protect" us from ourselves. My personal opinion is that if you choose to live in an old cardboard box (choose to, not have to), then you should be allowed to do so, on your own property. Being contrary by nature, I happen to like weeds and junk cars for lawn ornaments, tends to keep folks thinking I don't have anything worth bothering with.
It is the creeping incrementalism of the bureaucracy then has gotten us to where we are now. Every time a new level of oversight is added, or the management changes, new rules are added, so that those in charge can justify their positions, so they can be seen as "doing something".
It is the same principle that has gotten us the gun laws we have today. Someone claims loudly that there is a problem (which may or maynot be true), and those in authority rush to "do something" (right or wrong), so they will be seen as caring and effective, and so retain their jobs, furthering their enjoyment of their pathetic little lives, and imposing more and more restrictions of the rest of us, in a vain attempt to prove to themselves that they are something that they will actually never be, free men!
Sorry for the rant - not
Double Naught Spy
New member
It is legal because they are building in an area that has those restrictions.
Sure, your house and your rules so long as they are compliant within the law, zoning, safety, etc.
No, the better word is ignorance.. The builder and client should have verified that the house plans were compliant with zoning laws, but apparently failed to do so or did so and figured they could get around the zoning laws.
I don't know about CA, but after changing over to more efficient lower wattage lights and a newer AC unit, we save anywhere from 8-20% per month. So that means 8-20% less energy that needs to be produced for me and since most of our plants are coal, then that much less coal pollution goes into the air for my home.
Baba Louie
New member
As an architect, one quickly becomes aware of at least two sets of legal design constraints with which one must deal for building.
Zoning Ordinances = land planning. Updated by local City/County Councils as they see fit (you have some input as a community member... little, but some).
Building Codes = specific req'ts updated every 3 years, which most local Bldg Depts will utilize with regards to "Public safety, welfare, sanitation". Most local Bldg Depts will review new codes when they are published and offer local "Revised Amendments" for review (with input from local developers, builders, engineers, etc) prior to adoption. In our case (So. NV) these amendments must be passed by local gov't councils into law.
There are still a few places out in unincorporated Nevada (for example) where ya build something, then report to local County Assessor whatcha built for tax purposes. If it falls down and kills ya, it's your own fault. But those types of "free" zones are getting fewer and farther in between.
Light bulbs? Energy conservation. Same w/ windows.
That's the newest, latest, greatest, lemon freshened compliance code which local Bldg Depts utilize. I.E.C.C. (International Energy Conservation Code) accounts for openings in walls, insulation thickness, glass "U" values, light fixture/lamp types and quantities, heating/cooling systems.
Just try to build a real, honest to god, Abe Lincoln type log cabin in the city somewhere. HAH! Adobe? HUMPH! Curiously, we've designed several "straw bale" homes and while we had hell to pay at first, the energy conserving quality (when designed properly) has seen that alternate material move forward.
As Las Vegas has somewhat an international polyglot type of populace, I've gotten to work with builders, architects and engineers from Australia, China, U.K., India, Iran, Hungary, Czech Rep., Khazakistan (sp?), Brazil, Cuba, Japan, Israel and the Phillipines. None of them have, to date, such intense requirements for building as the US (well, maybe the U.K.), but they're trying hard to emulate our progress. (And still we have Hotels catch fire... lessons learned, code updates to be issued soon).
Here's a good one for ya... We now have to run some of our plans (commercial only at this time) by the local LE Agencies so they have a plan on file... just in case. Fire Dept has always had access (and design review) for obvious reasons.
If you know how to access it you can, thru the local assessors website, call up house plans for (recently built) "information purposes". Ya like that one, huh? Your house... on my computer screen (print out or save file, thank you very much). Everything is scanned into a computer. Everything!
MUAHAHAHAHA
Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. All I know is, It is. Keeps me (and a lot of other people) busy. The next building code update is 2009. They've gotten quite a bit larger and more involved with each passing edition.
Zoning Ordinances = land planning. Updated by local City/County Councils as they see fit (you have some input as a community member... little, but some).
Building Codes = specific req'ts updated every 3 years, which most local Bldg Depts will utilize with regards to "Public safety, welfare, sanitation". Most local Bldg Depts will review new codes when they are published and offer local "Revised Amendments" for review (with input from local developers, builders, engineers, etc) prior to adoption. In our case (So. NV) these amendments must be passed by local gov't councils into law.
There are still a few places out in unincorporated Nevada (for example) where ya build something, then report to local County Assessor whatcha built for tax purposes. If it falls down and kills ya, it's your own fault. But those types of "free" zones are getting fewer and farther in between.
Light bulbs? Energy conservation. Same w/ windows.
That's the newest, latest, greatest, lemon freshened compliance code which local Bldg Depts utilize. I.E.C.C. (International Energy Conservation Code) accounts for openings in walls, insulation thickness, glass "U" values, light fixture/lamp types and quantities, heating/cooling systems.
Just try to build a real, honest to god, Abe Lincoln type log cabin in the city somewhere. HAH! Adobe? HUMPH! Curiously, we've designed several "straw bale" homes and while we had hell to pay at first, the energy conserving quality (when designed properly) has seen that alternate material move forward.
As Las Vegas has somewhat an international polyglot type of populace, I've gotten to work with builders, architects and engineers from Australia, China, U.K., India, Iran, Hungary, Czech Rep., Khazakistan (sp?), Brazil, Cuba, Japan, Israel and the Phillipines. None of them have, to date, such intense requirements for building as the US (well, maybe the U.K.), but they're trying hard to emulate our progress. (And still we have Hotels catch fire... lessons learned, code updates to be issued soon).
Here's a good one for ya... We now have to run some of our plans (commercial only at this time) by the local LE Agencies so they have a plan on file... just in case. Fire Dept has always had access (and design review) for obvious reasons.
If you know how to access it you can, thru the local assessors website, call up house plans for (recently built) "information purposes". Ya like that one, huh? Your house... on my computer screen (print out or save file, thank you very much). Everything is scanned into a computer. Everything!
MUAHAHAHAHA
Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. All I know is, It is. Keeps me (and a lot of other people) busy. The next building code update is 2009. They've gotten quite a bit larger and more involved with each passing edition.
How much energy does it take to recycle the CFL bulbs for the mercury? These bulbs are made in china of course. When China manufactures them, do they release mercury into the environment? Discharge it into the ocean which laps at California's shore? Claims are they last 7 years. I'm replacing them far sooner than that. And who recycles them? Do I need to drive them to a facility and waste more energy doing so? Residential lighting is a minor consumption issue for consumers compared to the savings to be had by efficient air conditioning systems.
That being said, replace the bulbs after the code officers sign off. Or vote with your feet and get out.
That being said, replace the bulbs after the code officers sign off. Or vote with your feet and get out.
JuanCarlos
New member
I don't know, I saw upwards of a 20% drop in electricity usage when we replaced nearly all of our incandescents. Of course, that doesn't factor in heat (we're up north), but even adding heat to the mix it was probably upwards of a 10% drop in our bill averaged over the year.
Lighting is actually a pretty significant portion of the average residence's energy consumption.
MeekAndMild
New member
Yes, REdworm, somehow I expected that.
1) Such zoning laws operate under the sort of reasoning which used to produce zoning which said that homes in certain parts of town could not be resold to persons of recent African ancestry. The idea is that non-uniform homes or non-uniform occupants might bring down neighboring property values. Which is a crock of you-know-what. Realtors and builders want to optimize their profit and minimize their need to accomodate the customers.
2) When you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, the usual process is that a couple of builders or realtors get together and draw up a list of codes then get one of their buddies (usually there is at least one realtor on every city counsel) to run it through on a slow night when there are a minimum number of citizens at the meeting. Since these things are seldom announced beforehand they are usually put right through with no debate. If debate is anticipated its relatively easy to pack the audience with sympathisers.
I'm not just BS ing here. One of my favorite and most easily seen sets of crooked ordinances are the ones which typically apply to outdoor lighting. Normally lighting codes are drawn up in such a way as to maximize sales of unneeded lighting to maximize profits of both the power companies selling off peak power and the companies selling outdoor lighting fixtures. The net result is that citizens in the 'burbs can't even see the full moon and they have to keep their blinds shut to sleep. Guess what they're told if they complain? "Get together and talk the city counsel into changing the law."
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MeekAndMild
New member
Baba Louie there is an architect up in the pacific northwest by the name of Ianto Evans who seems to be making it a lifetime project to teach citizens how to build cheap and efficient housing. You might be interested in reading some of his work (I recommend The Hand-Sculpted House) for interest.
He says that one of the easiest methods is by adding onto a permitted building, often an out building or a trailer.
I've seen this many times in the deep south. A guy puts a trailer on his lot. The city changes the zoning to ban trailers. Guy cuts off the tongue and removes the axles so its no longer a trailer. The city leaves him alone for a while but won't give him a permit to build the house he wanted. So he puts a permanent roof on his trailer then he adds some rooms, re-does the plumbing and then one day in a year or so the last wall is nearly completed. Depending on the owner they might keep the trailer in their house or reweld the tongue and re-attach the axles and sell it.
He says that one of the easiest methods is by adding onto a permitted building, often an out building or a trailer.
I've seen this many times in the deep south. A guy puts a trailer on his lot. The city changes the zoning to ban trailers. Guy cuts off the tongue and removes the axles so its no longer a trailer. The city leaves him alone for a while but won't give him a permit to build the house he wanted. So he puts a permanent roof on his trailer then he adds some rooms, re-does the plumbing and then one day in a year or so the last wall is nearly completed. Depending on the owner they might keep the trailer in their house or reweld the tongue and re-attach the axles and sell it.
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JuanCarlos
New member
Oh, good lord, how did I miss that? Do these idiots realize that there are some applications where incandescents really are a better choice? Ever heard what the EMI from an CFL does to the signal coming from a set of electric guitar pickups, for instance?