Your position on mandatory government service

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I agree with universal federal service. It does not have to be military. It could be Forest Serive, Para-medics, Prison Guards, or any of hundreds of other job opitions that would both serve our national interest and train people for civilian jobs and responsibilities. I also think that our troops should be "at home only" except in a declared war or national emergency. A truely well regulated militia would be a very good thing, so I think that all job fields should start with a month of militia training before specializing and require a week each year to refresh those militia skills.
 
So what would you have done to me, if when called up, I said FU my life is my own?

Patriotisim should not be a state mandated religion.
Let me put it this way. If I'm allowed to burn the flag, Then there is little reason to do so. If I'm ASKED to serve then there is little reason for me to say no. If you ask me to "come over & look at somthing", I will. If you order me over at gunpoint, I will do my best to seriously alter your anatomy.

Many if not all of you think of gun-grabbers as agents of tyrany. The thing is that agents of tyrany allways think of themselves as working for a greater good. Take a long look into a mirror... We teach our children about the horrors of the NAZIs,In 50 years will someone need to teach their children about you? & How can someone who calls themselves "Libertarian" support "universal federal service"?

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USMCGrunt said it a lot better than I can.
Most of the posters here sound like some
people from the 1960's......burn your draft
card and go to Canada. Yeah...let the OTHER
guy do your fighting for you. Is that the
way things are in America today? Sheeeeesh!

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
DorGunR, who said anything about fighting? we're talking about forced service, not an actual wartime draft.

this ain't the 1960s. you can't punish the "Me Generation" by sending today's 18-yearold to boot camp. the 18-year-old didn't do anything wrong. if you want to punish the 1960s draft dodgers, cut off their Viagra prescription fer crissake. don't take it out on their kids.
 
Actually, I guess I didn't see it as "forced labor" but as a privilage to serve. Granted, I'm not sure I would call it a privlage these days in the dark days of King Willie, but that's what has become of this country when the pot heads grow up to run the country. I think that the military does a very good job of turning a boy into a man and I don't regret it for a minute. Kind of like the military, you complete the mission first, then gripe about it later, you've earned the right to do that. Same applies here. I am wondering who here that feels time spent in the military have been there and who hasn't. if you served your time, you rate an opinion, if you haven't served your time, then you just plain don't rate to have an opinion on it. You may have a right to have an opinion, but you plain just don't rate.
 
I've noticed a number of people profess admiration for the Swiss because every man has an assault weapon in his home. Well, he didn't buy it. It was issued to him because he is required to be a member of the military in one form or the other for most of his adult life.

I've also noticed a number of people justify their possession of arms because they are the militia. They don't train or drill, but by God they're soldiers.

Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't say you're a free people if you stay at home and let some other poor schmuck prepare to do your fighting for you. If you aren't willing at least to infiltrate the National Guard armories and ensure 2nd Amendment lovers are the majority of Guardsmen, then you deserve to have some blue helmeted government mercenary come collect your guns.

Some of you have likened military service to slavery or indentured servitude. Well, I served twenty years. Yes, I had to do some things I didn't like. But I was treated with respect for the most part and felt I was doing something worthwhile.

Perhaps some think freedom is not having to go to work when you don't feel like it. Maybe that's Ok when you have some place else to go, like moving back in with mommy and daddy. It doesn't work when your ship is on fire and there is no place to go but swim. Then you go to work, you obey the orders of those appointed over you, and you survive. And when it's all over, you feel a lot better about yourself and your shipmates than someone else does about his co-workers at the used car lot or the brokerage firm.

I have missed one election since I became an adult. That includes primaries and general elections. That was because I was on the other side of the world floating about in the North Arabian Sea wondering what fundamentalist islamic nation was going to try to sink the great satan's aircraft carrier. I asked for an absentee ballot from my county clerk, but it never arrived.

I have on the other hand taught community college classes and found that the entire class failed to vote because they were too busy with their lives to vote. Who are the patriots here?

So when someone says they don't think they should have to serve in peacetime, but will consider it in time of war, I am reminded of all the slackers I have met in church, civic organizations, and other groups who talk a good story about what should be done, but when it comes time to perform they are most noteworthy by their absence.




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Bruce Stanton
CDR, USN-Ret.
Sgt., Kings Co. Sheriff - Ret.
 
I believe it is at best a misguided idea. You can't instill a love of Country anymore than you can a love of God by force. A place for everyone, and everyone in their place is all you would end up with.

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DorGunR
I did live through the 60's and I did burn my draft card.
The day amnesty was announced.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited March 22, 2000).]
 
I don't like the draft, never did. Still the year before I could have been drafted the Draft was ended. I Joined in 1974. Why? Because I wanted to serve my country. But I like many others like the Starship Troopers Idea.
Service = Citizenship

Think about it only those willing to Pleadge their Lives, Fortunes, and Honor should have the right to vote, or (I know I'll get flamed for this) keep and bear arms. I know that not all are fit for the military, but as has been pointed out there are other ways to serve. No vote or public Office unless you are willing to earn it.

Just think had this been in effect in the 30's we still would have had plenty of soilders for WWII. And during the 60's Maybe Klinton would have thought twice about blowing off the Military, and if he had he wouldn't be President today as he would be a subject not a Citizen.

Those not willing to pay the cost of Freedom, don't really deserve all the Benefits.
Those that are willing but are unable should not be penalized. But those that are not willing to risk all for freedom but just want it given to them are part of the reason we have the Problems we have today.
 
Ray, your world would not be worth defending.

& what about the 60s war protesters who put their asses on the line & got their skulls cracked? Did they not pay the cost for freedom? What about Jehova's Witnesses who went to prision rather than figh durring WWII & the German Witnesses who were put into concentration camps & shot rather than fight. & those early Americans they clearly shirked their responcibilities, I mean they should have been killing Indians for the King, instead of stirring up trouble. I can go on indefinately....

What some of you are talking about has nothing to do with Freedom, maybe you don't understand what it means. Or maybe you believe your masters when they tell you that you are free because you serve them & not some other jerk. & that other jerk tells their slaves the same things about you.

There are so many things which would make the world better. We'd have paradise if only..... everything was perfect :)

Free will is a bitch, Send your complaints to God & leave me the hell alone!

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Tony:
Your right providing aid and comfort to the nation's enemies in time of war works both ways, some time for the good and some times for the bad.
 
First off, God bless all of those who have sacrificed for our Freedom.

If we become a sovereign nation again, I would be in favor of compulsory Military serivice but not national service. If we need people to pick up trash and clean the streets, use inmates and tell the supreme court that inmates are not citizens and therefore not entitled to all of the privileges we enjoy.

I have not served in the Military but I do have offspring who possibly will. If we maintain the status quo in this nation, I will discourage them from surrendering their personal freedom to the United Nations.

No offense to those of you who have given all for our great nation. In the meantime, we can all do our part to restore the sovereign resolve of this land.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
I must admit I don't buy this "indentured servitude" argument. It seems to me it's more of the self-indulgence of the sixties, which Lord knows I was part of, after I served my country in SEAsia from '66-'68 (Navy).

What I think is important in all of this is that we start to become cohesive as a country again for reasons other than McDonalds and the Simpsons! I think community service (productive stuff like mentoring or conservation work - not trash pick-up) should be equal to military service for a couple of years, paid in like wages. There are plenty of things we could all work on to make the USofA a better place, rather than bitching all the time about what we're not getting.

I like some of the things which P.J.O'Rourke writes about, but we have become so obsessed with individual rights that we are whining our way right out of the Constitution.

We must have a common culture to survive, and it's gotta be more than the cardboard nuitition of more strip malls. I think some service to the country, be it military or community-based, is a good call.

There is nothing which ends the isolated "wisdom learned on the Internet" better than getting our butts out into the gritty real world, where few of us would go if left to our own devices.

I think that's more like my "five cents" worth.

[This message has been edited by Joseph (edited March 22, 2000).]
 
I agree with the way Starship troopers took care of it. It was not mandatory to server live in the country and enjoy freedom. It was required before you could vote or run for office. It did not limit the freedoms that most people enjoy today(since only 18 percent vote anyway.) It would be wrong to make it a mandatory thing. Forced labor is slavery. This is different. It would also ensure the government was made up of people that understood the sacrifices that need to be made. Perhapes then we would not be the peace keepers of the world. Or maybe more power would be given to the troops that are. Either way, it could only lead to better government. Then voting would be an earned right and people would not squander it like today. you get the government that you vote for.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph:
I like some of the things which P.J.O'Rourke writes about, but we have become so obsessed with individual rights that we are whining our way right out of the Constitution.[/quote]

Your thoughts on individual rights are shared by Bill Clinton.

In fact, the Constitution and the Declaration of Indepependence focus very specifically on individual rights, and for good reason: The founders of our nation believed the preservation of individual rights was the reason for the very existence of government. We've fallen a long way since those days.
 
David,

Why do you find it necessary to slam someone, such as comparing me to Clinton, when there is disagreement. That just doesn't make sense.
 
It seems that most of those opposed to federal service are opposed to the military. I thought it was clear that the military was but one option. I too follow the original book "Starship Trooper" format.

Yes, I do consider myself to be basically Libertarian. I follow their platform more closely than any other. My divergence is that I want to see people have a stake in the vote process. The masses voting for bread and circus and refusing to serve in the army brought down Rome. I see it doing the same here.
 
I agree with Heinlein and Starship Troopers if you want to vote then some where down the line you had to put something on the line.

I do not agree with mandatory service( there are some people who should not serve). But there are other ways to serve your country besides being in the military.

How about the CCC or serving in a volunteer in a veterans hospital, Helping in a homeless shelter, there are lots of ways that a person could satisfy the "federal service requirement" besides carrying a rifle.

However it would be a good place to teach basic military skills (shooting too) to everyone entering and what the constitution really means (since they seem to miss it in school). If today’s kids and adults too had previously had these constitutional lessons and understood that these meals on wheels missions are borderline as far as their oath and the constitution are concerned I don’t think we would have as many of them.

I will bet this thought, if all the voters in this country had served in the military we would think long and hard before we dumped a bunch of kids in some back water festering hole like Bosnia and Kosovo. It would be hard to get reelected if the voters knew that you had condemned 2000 soldiers to live in the field in the winter for something that had nothing to do with the nations security (not to mention Bill would not be able to even run for president).
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph:
Why do you find it necessary to slam someone, such as comparing me to Clinton, when there is disagreement. That just doesn't make sense.[/quote]

Maybe it was undiplomatic of me to point that out. Sorry if you took offense.

My point remains: The primacy of individual rights was one of the most basic concepts embraced by those who put a lot of thought into creating this country. The idea that individual rights aren't very important was clearly not embraced by our nation's founders.
 
David,

No offense taken.

Individual rights are very important, but we must remember the old phrase, "no one is an island". Tribes depended on a cohesiveness for survival. I was raised around ranching folk, where everyone had to pitch in to make things work.

I fear we are loosing that sense of cohesiveness because we don't have that much in common anymore, except the superficial sameness bred by corporate america and accepted by people who only know how to want, rather than who know that we also need to pull together.

We on TFL are faced, in our minds, with a threat to our Constitutional system, and we all agree that things are very ominous. Yet, we still, for the most part, can't pull together because many of us have never learned that skill.

You don't learn those things in the workplace because it's dog-eat-dog and you get fired or you quit, and everyone wants to be part of a start-up so they can get rich and never have to put up with teamwork again.

I think those of us who have been in the military have learned that lives depended on working together, and I think that's the kind of thing that helps makes a country great. Not thinking of just oneself all the time, but also of the whole, when appropriate.

I will also admit that my beliefs are not in vogue these days.
 
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