your handgun as impact weapon

Ive gotta admit that im a bit surprised at the length this thread has...lol.....it would seem to me that you use what ever is at hand if you deem/react to if necessary, perhaps with the realization that using the handgun as a striking implement has the possibility in some weapons of stopping there function as a firearm and in some cases the situation, finger in trigger etc, could cause a discharge(hasnt this been reported a couple of times?)......it has had some interesting discussion but Im no "real world" operator, just a curious gun owner......fubsy.
 
My point in my initial post was that I thought that, in the scenario as presented, the antagonist would still be a lethal threat. I note that in both of the war stories, shooting the antagonist would have been justifiable. In both of them, the presence of a partner made the use of lethal force difficult to do safely. I don't think the "threat required less than lethal force" as stated in the initial post.
What I ignored was the possibility that other circumstances might prevent me from shooting safely.

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TB., NC
rosie.acmecity.com/bebe/6/index.html
 
Reference the finger and trigger question-I can count the times I have had my finger on the trigger on one hand-and a near equal number of shootings. All those negligent discharges, and guys shooting themselves and each other, are all due to finger on the trigger when you are not ready, or going to shoot. I can sight numerous examples from my own agency of negligent discharges all due to this, including one fatality. Sorry, it isn't worth it to me. In the CQC enviornment there is way to much physical stuff going on to allow for a breach of this rule, period.
 
trust me pluspinc,
when i am looking at a knife, i'm not scrolling through my repetoire of non-lethal responses. your analogy is not apt because the pistol strike being discussed here is a specific response to a non-lethal threat. if i decide to strike someone with a pistol, i don't want to have my finger near the trigger and i would prefer to have practiced that motion previously. you're right that you can't train for these events and "contingency" was not the right choice of words on my part, but i'm trying to comment on the training of an action. if your "real world logic" places no value on training specific actions, then put me on record as being illogical.

re: trigger finger response, i'm glad you found my terminology amusing but don't misrepresent what i'm saying- not trying to create a "buzzword", just trying to explain a simple idea: if you are going to try to use your pistol as a striking tool, keep your finger out of the trigger. as for trigger response time and fackler, don't see how it applies after the decision is made to strike someone with your gun.

the officer i mentioned ended up "winging it" and killed his partner. what i'm trying to tap into is the universal idea we all know as falling to ones level of training. striking with pistols is not my favorite thing in the world, but i stand behind the idea that if you practice any action, you'll be more effective when using it.

best regards,
joe


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www.skdtac.com
tactical accessories for self-defense and le
 
I would like to add one point here that has been briefly touched and that is the unfortunate position of facing some0ne with a knife----Ive done my share of karate (isshinryu) and all i can really say is that none of that empty hand vs knife stuff works...your gonna get cut, get cut a lot and bleed a lot........we'd do the standard chalk knife drills etc, and it was amazing how chewed up you'd get......but what really drove it home to me was an accident that I had recently. At the time I had a reasonably new spyderco delica I was trimming a piece of plastic while sitting cross legged on the floor--I was pulling the blade toward me as I felt I had better control..In order to keep peace in the family I turned the situation around and pushed the knife against the plastic---knife came out of the plastic and hit the mid front of my calf, a beautiful snap cut it was so sharp and fast I didnt realize Id been cut, I had newspaper over my lap to ketch the trimmings, a few seconds later i realized that there was something on my leg and removed the paper and there was a 2" gash appx 1/4" deep and it was not only bleeding profusely, but every time my heart would pump I get treated to the sight of a little blood spray...........bottom line for me was that i would have bled out long before I could have stopped someone....dont take a chance with anyone with a bladed implement....Ive seen tons of tapes on knife been to a few seminars and always knew they were deadly, but until you get cut, you have noidea how fast you can bleed out......jmo...fubsy.

[This message has been edited by fubsy (edited January 30, 2000).]
 
Hey SKTAC..notice my little jab brought out MORE good info? You got it right.
There are a lot of things we shoudn't do and many things my training didn't cover. When in the academy they kept talking about "TACTICAL handcuffing" whatever that is. They showed us how to handcuff someone and told us what WE would do.
I thought it over and asked the instructor an interesting question.
" You keep saying what we will do etc. Last Friday night I had a problem I could have used your advice on. I had a 300+ pound highly intoxicated and pissed off Indian woman on a water bed that needed handcuffing. In the processing one offer lost his balance and fell out a window and it took four of us or more to get the job done. How could be have done it better?"
We took a lunch break and I got a dirty look.
The picture on that water bed looked like something in a Laurel and Hardy movie.
Training mostly shows us what happens in only ideal circumstances. I'm sure you and others have a smile by now, but years ago I did an article in SWAT magazine called, "When Superman has to go to jail." I have seen little in training that addresses those types. We have to sort of resort to OJT. I have the scars from that type of training. You have any? Sounds like you do.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
A handgun as an impact weapon?

I can evaluate this from the other side; I was pistol whipped with a full size .45 (I'm not sure what kind). Hitting someone with a handgun isn't somthing that you should stake your life on, & if your life isn't in danger hitting someone in the head with a hard object isn't responsilbe. The problen is that such a blow to the head will be inconsistent, it could kill someone & then again it might do nothing. It is also my opinion that for non LEOs you should either be running away or using the maximin level of force avialable in order to STOP the threat ASAP. That dosen't leave much room for intermediate levels of force.

If the guy had hit me with a piece of pipe I might be dead, however, If he had hit me with a piece of pipe the size, shape & weight of a gun..... well I'd bet even money that they'd of been removing that pipe from his..... :)

"Know the stillness of freedom,
Where there is no more striving"
- The Dhamapadah
- Buddha 563-483 B.C.

Tony.
 
Hello Gentlemen,

I'd like to add some points to the impact weapons/firearms discussion. This is something I initially, some years ago, thought was a foolish idea. Not any more. I now both practice and teach it. Like any technique, there are right ways and wrong ways.

In reference to legal issues, its most important to win the fight. As much as some criminals deserve to die, it really is better if you win by not killing them, and the impact of a pistol is better than the report of a shot in some cases.

I teach the use of the muzzle with one or both hands as a thrust to face, sternum, etc. I am also fond of striking with pistol butt. This works very well with pistols that have extended full-length dust covers (ie. Glock, HK, etc.). The muzzle never moves back farther than the front of the dust cover thereby preventing round ejection.

For those in the black balaclava group (like me), if your pistol has a semi-permanent light mount, its a good plus. A 6 volt Surefire light will really light the way...if you will pardon the pun. I am also fond of the seattle Slug in a Glock. This is not for magazine loading, but if you see one, you'll get the idea (Ouch!!).

As far as effectiveness, I was present when a rifle armed suspect was met at the door during an entry, by an officer armed with a Glock as I just described.

The officer deflected the rifle with his support hand and struck the suspect in the face with the muzzle of the Glock. Results - An unconscious suspect with a broken circum orbital bone that lived to stand trial (good or bad depending on your perspective).

There are at least a half-dozen other tmes when this has been done, and it always worked if it was done right. Like any other tool, there's a special place when nothing else will work as well.

Gabe Suarez

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Gabe Suarez
The HALO Group
www.thehalogroup.com
 
You know, the old "muzzle jab trick", *poke* !ouch! LOL

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I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG

It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself. Tom Jefferson
When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up. BigG
 
Gabe Suarez!

It is an honor to be reading your first post here, sir. I hope you enjoy your time on the board.
 
Oh- just to be sure I understand-are you saying that striking with the butt was good with Glocks? Or, where you referring to muzzle strikes?

Thanks!
 
Originally posted by Spectre:
Oh- just to be sure I understand-are you saying that striking with the butt was good with Glocks? Or, where you referring to muzzle strikes?


Spectre,

I've got a little device inserted in the channel at the rear of the magazine well area thats called a Seattle Slug. Its a brass insert that has a projection that is intended to guide the magazine into the well at high speed. The nice thing is that its metal and hurts like a *&%$#!! when you smack someone with it hammerfist style. If you practice the angle of the strike enough, you don't even hit the magazine floorplate.

One of my partners at HALO Group is working on a steel proto-type that protrudes out a little more for some extra Xs and Os on the impact end.

Gabe


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Gabe Suarez
The HALO Group
www.thehalogroup.com
Click to expand...
 
I really believe that if you strike with the pistol grip/mag well you may damage the gun. Remember a semi-auto is only as good as its magazine feeding device. My original post refered to using the muzzle as a straight punch or using the top of the slide in a manner similar to a hard shove or palm strike, handgun held in normal grip with support hand under trigger guard/dust cover area. It was never intended to be swung as a club or hammer fisted or karate chopped.
 
Thanks, Gabe, that makes sense. (I was picturing that hollow area while performing a butt strike. :)) How much does the Seattle Slug- or it's forthcoming replacement- weigh?
 
Tuc22 and Spectre,

Tuc, you are correct in the possibility of damage. Some of the guys I work with have done this repeatedly on soft targets with the lanyard loop of their 1911s without damage.

I've done likewise with suitably altered weapons. It definitely is not a Plan A situation, but if the situation calls for it, its definitely a worthwhile option.

There will be an article on this in the next installment of my newsletter. For those interested, contact me off-forum at my site www.thehalogroup.com (its free).

Thanks,

Gabe

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Gabe Suarez
The HALO Group
www.thehalogroup.com
 
Two Cent War Story: My old First Sgt once attempted to "headslap" an NVA he thought was trailing his SF recon team. Top (tailgunner) detected movement/noise on backtrail...team goes into hasty ambush formation in heavy jungle. Top decides only one to two trackers are behind and very close to team. Team decides to take one prisoner, kill any others. Team masks with the intention of CSing the kill zone; Top will jackslap the proposed POW with his 1911; Team will kill the rest...Our hero hides behing the large roots of a jungle behemoth and springs out when the NVA rounds the corner...He slaps subject across the temple with the muzzle of his .45. As the pistol glances off a very thick skull (with no effect), Top is staring into the eyes of a very large (and pissed off) orangutan. Monkey goes ape (pun intended). Top wakes up in US Okinawa hospital with flail ribs, broken limbs, skull fracture, and scalp peeled from back of head to just above eyebrows (Orangutan put hand on top of his head and peeled him like an orange before doing a Samsonite suitcase ad...). Team shot the ape with CAR-15s. Top said it was the most surprised he had ever been in his life and that the monkey probably felt the same way...
 
In speaking with one of our legal types about having anything on a handgun that would be designed or used for impact use, she had a point. She claims she would keep blurting the phrase "pistol whipped" at EVERY opportunity and said it seems cops haven't learned from the disasterous use of flashlights as impact weapons ala Detroit, Chicago etc.
I think I'll pass on that concept.
 
Originally posted by pluspinc:
She claims she would keep blurting the phrase "pistol whipped" at EVERY opportunity and said it seems cops haven't learned from the disasterous use of flashlights as impact weapons

There is great danger in allowing bean counters in dictating our tactical strategies. Striking a suspect (or adversary) is an option that fits a certain situation. If cops haven't learned, I think its a good thing, because its better to be alive explaining yourself, than liability free and in the hospital...or worse.

I for one have struck a number of suspects (and adversaries) with everything from fists to flashlights and shotguns, and even with a car. These instances all required that this be done, or that the criminal be shot.

The problem comes when force is used INDISCRIMINATELY in situations where its not warranted. Remember Force Does Not equal Abuse. Generally, the same force requirements apply as a shooting situation. If you can shoot him, you can hit him, although the reverse is not true.

The problem is made worse when the officer (or citizen) fails to adequately defend themselves and are intimidated by the legal opposition. Preparing to exlain yourself is just as important as preparing to tactically defend yourself.

I've been both sued and been the subject of investigations a number of times, but that doesn't mean that I will stop doing what must be done, whether that calls for justifiably shooting or justifiably striking.

A suitable response to the pistol-whip term would be "Excuse me mam (interrupt her if you must, even if an objection is made, your words will be heard) the suspect (or "robber" don't call him a "defendant")
rushed me, I was afraid for my life, he was moving too quickly and the circumstances were not such that I felt proper in shooting him. I used the only means that he left available to me by his hostile and aggressive actions, and that was to strike him with what I had in my hand."

Remember, lawsuits are certainly bad, but so are funerals..specially if you're the guest of honor.

Gabe

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Gabe Suarez
The HALO Group
www.thehalogroup.com
Click to expand...
 
The bull in the legal china shop is valid if the money used for the defense isn't yours.
Also there is the ASSUMPTION that the officers or individuals will use such things properly. I think Rodney King tapes say otherwise and the abuses from police with such things as flashlights etc., are pretty well documented.
We can start with discussing "saps." Now there is an OLDE term.
To try and turn everything we can get our hands on as a "tactical" (hate that term) weapon is getting so far out I just saw a flashlight with a .38 special in the bottom.
Good lord, what next? Coffee mugs with brass "knucks" on the handle? Most cops have a box full of odds and ends "toys" they aquire over the years, each demonstrated as the last word on the issue. Anyone want to buy a number of stun guns? Anyone want to talk about the big talk that pushed them onto cops as the last word? Everybody had to have one until the theories ran out and the word spread about how they didn't work. A lot of cops got hurt figuring that out.
 
Mr. Suarez, nice to have you aboard. I toatlly concur with Gabe's post. He works for one of the most P.C. agencies in Ca. and can back his stuff up. I have been in multiple shootings, and lethal force level impact weapon encounters, and have never been sued (pound on wood) for their use. The key is proper escalation of force, precise documentation of what happened (as opposed to the way I was taught) and the key is use, not abuse of these weapons, or force. And pluspinc, yes I dearly miss my sap, it still hangs in my locker, so I can look at it daily and remember the good old days.
 
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