Your caliber of choice for elk

[jimbob86]

I never said that you could compare shooting your gun in a vice to shooting hanging upside down by a tree limb in a hurricane which is sort of the strawman ya'll are throwing in there.

Nobody said you did. What you did say was:

If a man can shoot a 2 inch group at 200 yards he doesn't have to practice at 400 yards to make that shot.

Which is Horse Hockey.

If you want to make that shot in field conditions, you need to practice that shot under field conditions: "Train Like You'll Fight" comes to mind.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

You like Peetza are thowing in stuff that I didn't say. I suspect I have been shooting longer than you have although not as much I'm sure, but at least once a week at different ranges back in the early seventies. More when the mood hits me now. And guess what, the bullets went right where the data said they would go.

I never said that you could compare shooting your gun in a vice to shooting hanging upside down by a tree limb in a hurricane which is sort of the strawman ya'll are throwing in there.

There is no reason why a man should get a substantially different MOA at 400 than he does at 200 unless the wind is squirrely, which is what I said to start with. And, the bullet drop is going to be plenty close to what the data says for elk size game.

And, I can't imagine anybody taking a 400 yard shot on anything without a good rest of some sort. My back pack and hunting coat work just fine.

If the man can't hit a paint can at 200 yards he has no business taking a 400 yard shot. But, I bet he knows that.

Well, I have no doubt that I have the least experience of anyone in this conversation but my experience tells me the opposite of yours, and my experience tells me the same as KraigWy's

I have NEVER seen a bullet that flies like a ballistics calculator says it will. Generally, from what I've seen, they both drop and drift LESS than expected, at least at relatively close range out to 300-350, which is the limit of my experience. Yet, at the same time, my experience also tells me that making those shots at 300, 400, 500 yards is MUCH harder than the calculators might indicate and much harder than "2x half the distance".

However, I also believe that YOU are the ones putting words in OUR mouths and then claiming that we put those words in yours.

You mentioned shooting for groups at 200 yards. I don't know too many people (and certainly the OP never mentioned it) who shoot for groups under hunting conditions. Certainly, some people do, but they're not shooting 2" groups at 200 yards under typical hunting conditions. Since YOU mentioned 2" groups at 200 yards, the implication, I think clearly, is shooting for groups under nearly ideal conditions, since very few could shoot such groups under less than ideal conditions.

Since the OP will be hunting, his shots will be under hunting conditions, shooting 2" groups at 200 yards doesn't not extrapolate to shooting an elk at 400 (or the OPs 500) yards.

Add to that the fact that 2" at 200 does not simply become 4" at 400, for many reasons, not the least of which is that wind drift is not linear, and you have the making of disaster and disappointment when the first shot at 4 or 500 yards is at a live animal.

Shooting 225, 250, 275 when you've never shot over 200 is one thing. Shooting 4 or 500 is quite another.

 

[jimbob86]

if you know your bullet drop, wind drift, and FTLBs, have a good idea of the range and can make a good determination of where that bullet needs to go then it is not unethical to move from a 200 yard max to a 500 yard max.

The biggest problem with that statement is this:

have a good idea of the range

Let's take the OP's .308 WIN and the 180gr bullet several people have suggested, and we'll even assume it has a pretty good BC- we'll say .500:

The shooter sees his elk way out there in a flat (not even any vertical angle to figure, how convenient) and the wind is calm (so simple, right?) The shooter guesses 450 yards when the range is actually 480.... cause anybody could make a 30 yard estimation error at 1/4 mile away..... Our Hero lines up the perfect broadside shot, adds his ups and settles his crosshairs on the animal's heart, steadies his breathing, ..... squeezes the trigger on his 1.0 MOA rig which is resting on his rock solid backpack ....BOOM! ....... (.66 seconds elapses, in which by some miracle, the animal remained perfectly still)... the bullet will pass 11 inches below ( 30 yard range estimation error) POA, in a 5 inch-ish circle ( 1 MOA @ roughly 500)..... if the shooter is very lucky the bullet might hit in the very top of that 5" and he might still get his elk ..... it'd be twice as likely to hit in the half of that circle forward most on the animal ...... and hit it in the foreleg.....lost animal.

Oh, you hold to the shoulder? A 30 yard range estimation error the other way can result in a miss or a hit above the spine...... do you see the point?

And all this assumes that the shooter makes no error in position/hold, breathing, wind, up/dawn angle, knows his trajecory better than a ballistics program, etc. .... just a 30 yard oops on his "good idea of the range"...... and having never fired beyond 200 yards, 30 yards would be a very good guess.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Well, I should have never used two inches because that is what made you jump to conclusions.

To the OP. Here is the way I look at it. You know what you are capable of with your rifle at 200 yards and I will assume with what you can expect to find for a rest in hunting conditions. All things being equal you should be able to do about twice that at 400 yards. If your data is correct the charts are going to be very close to what is going to happen. That is why they made them. If at all possible shoot some at 400 yards somewhere so that you will be comfortable that is the case.

Like I said in my first post, the wind is what will get you. Keep an idea of what the wind is doing before you even see an elk and understand what it does to a bullet. Keep in mind that if you are shooting from timber across a gorge or something it may be doing something different out there. If you can't figure it out don't shoot. Hopefully it will be calm.

Once you get settled in to the best rest you can get see what your cross hairs are doing. Shouldn't take but a second. If they are wandering off all over the place don't shoot. If you can keep your cross hairs well within the size of the vital area of an elk your rifle will do it's part if you have figured the trajectory and wind correctly.

I'm sure they will pick this apart as well, but I have just never found killing elk with a good scoped rifle all that hard to do.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Jimbob, I can't imagine anybody shooting at those ranges in an area he is not totally familiar with without a good rangefinder.

 

[TheDutchman19]

I appreciate all of the input. First off I have no intention to just plug a random hole in an animal. I want to take an elk that is within my abilities. I am also not going tomorrow. I am doing the research so that I can be better prepared. I live in Southern California and the farthest distance I can practice at today is 250 yards. Before the hunt I will go somewhere I can practice at longer distances as well as try several different loads. Thanks again for the input.

 

[mapsjanhere]

A lot of it depends on how much weight you want to carry. I go elk hunting with a Tikka T3 in 308, with Barnes Vortex 168 gr TTSX bullets. With as light a rifle as the Tikka, that's my limit on recoil vs dragging that thing through the mountains all day. My last trip had a 10,000 ft mountain as a "that's where they bed down during the day" midday excursion in it.
If you're very stout recoil wise or don't mind dragging a 10 lbs rifle, a 300 WM or 7 RM probably gives you a bit more comfort zone on long shots due to the flatter curve, but that doesn't help you if you have a decent wind (and you get a lot of that out west) blowing your bullet all over the place.

 

[jimbob86]

Jimbob, I can't imagine anybody shooting at those ranges in an area he is not totally familiar with without a good rangefinder.

I was responding to tahunua's assertion:

if you know your bullet drop, wind drift, and FTLBs, have a good idea of the range and can make a good determination of where that bullet needs to go then it is not unethical to move from a 200 yard max to a 500 yard max.

The example also illustrates many of the other variables invloved, as well.

Wind and time of flight are big ones.

Wind can only be read with practice.

The biggest factor is the shooter being able to shoot in the conditions presented.

Were it me, I'd want a flatter shooting cartridge than the .308 WIN if I were going to try to shoot that far.

 

[ligonierbill]

I think the Dutchman just wants a new rifle. Whatever you get, good shooting, and good hunting

 

[CCCLVII]

Back on topic. I am trying a 458 Socom this year. I'm very excited!

 

[AllenJ]

Dutchman your 308 Winchester should do fine as long as you stay within your and it's limitations. I would not take shots longer than 400 yards and only if I had practiced and was proficient at that range. If you are looking for a new rifle and are not recoil shy, the 300 mags are a great place to start. If you are recoil shy try a 7mm Remington Mag.

 

[sc928porsche]

300WM.

 

[Stargazer]

Back on topic. I am trying a 458 Socom this year. I'm very excited!

What kind of 458 do you have? Pics? Ammo?

 

[miykael]

Your setup?

Dutch, what's your setup?

Personally, the more I research, the more I like the all purpose .308 (target * hunting). It really comes down to shot placement and you're not going to get more accurate than a .308 for a large game caliber. I've had out of the box Savage 10FP & Rem 700SPS Tactical shoot better than .5 MOA. Working on my Savage 10 Precision to do the same but with hunting Barnes LRXs NOT match bullets. All these rifles were bought used and shoot as good as custom rifles...but the secret is finding the right handload & measuring OAL to Ogive.

I'd say keep your .308 and go with the Barnes LRX 175 (good enough for Bison - see below). If not, the 338 Federal, which is based on a .308 case, is probably the best all purpose hunting caliber that isn't known.

Nice thing with the .308 is accuracy, barrel life and range time! The more you shoot, the better you'll become and confident out in the woods.

____________________________________________________
I'm copying this from a couple different boards:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=502596

The M1A/M-14 has more than enough energy to kill any North American game, with proper distance and shot placement. BC (Canada) regs for Bison (much tougher than elk) states:

7. ammunition to hunt bison must be constructed with a 175 grain or larger bullet, which retains 2,712 joules (2,000 ft lbs) or more energy at 100 m.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/1214/docs/hunting_trapping_front.pdf

My 20" Savage PC .308 with Barnes 175 LRX @ 2655 fps has over 2000 ft/lbs at 200M and still has over 1100 at 600M (more than enough for deer). With over 1550 ft/lbs at 400M, a .308 is a great all around North American big game cartridge. Considering compound bow hunters are killing the largest game with 50-80ft/lbs [yeah, yeah, I know it's a little different but c'mon] I don't think there should be any problem taking elk/moose with... a .308.
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499228
My setup: (remember 20" barrel)

Savage 10 Precision Carbine (20" tapered semi-heavy barrel)
Lake City Brass
CCI BR2 Primers
IMR 8208 XBR (42.5gn)
Barnes LRX 175gn bullets

LC brass - 2652/2659 fps (ave. 2739 ft/lbs energy @ 2655 fps)
Got about 0.4-0.7" groups off a bipod, with 42.5gn XBR.
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Also check the 338 Federal board:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=497949

 

[cornbush]

up to now, all my elk have fallen to a 270, this year i'll be using a 375 Ruger, the 270 is going too though.

 

[BIG P]

300 WM or 7MMSTW near or far.