Your caliber of choice for elk

ZeroJunk said:
If a man can shoot a 2 inch group at 200 yards he doesn't have to practice at 400 yards to make that shot. There are plenty of programs that will tell you where you will be at longer ranges accurately enough for elk size game.
Click to expand...

I completely disagree. 400 yards is MUCH harder than "2x 200 yards".

I can make shots all day every day on woodchucks at 200 yards. Easy. I'm angry if I miss at that distance. I can almost shoot them in the eye at 200. At 400 yards I'm lucky to hit the whole animal, never have actually.

Under "ideal", unchanging conditions, bipod, sandbag, no stress, no rush, my groups double in MOA between 200 and 400.

Going from "I can shoot 2" at 200 yards at the range, with sandbag and a shooting table under cover, with no pressure and no rush." to shooting at an animal at 400 yards that might leave at any second, using a tree branch for a rest, judging wind across a valley, with my heart pounding...

No, I consider that poor judgement, at best.
 
I own a 300 wby mag for such things, but I am going to say stay with the 308. Because your familiar with it, you already know it's capabilities and limitations, and I assume you shoot well with it.
 
A 308 is fine for elk. If you like the gun, there really isn't any reason to change.

As far as the range goes, any thing beyond 300 yards is going to be tough. I
practice at 100 but working out to 275 yards is doable if you know your ballastic table. Beyond that though, you really need to get some trigger time in at that range.
 
We will be hunting in Utah.
Click to expand...
I live in Utah. 300 and under is more realistic from my experience. Normally when you can take a 500 yard shot the opportunity to move in closer isn't unrealistic. Some people can hit them out further so they do that instead of taking the time and energy of sneaking up closer.
 
The 308 will be fine for Elk but be sure to choose a good bullet and practice out to the longest range that you expect to be shooting. My son took a fine bull with one shot with a 308/180 NP.

Personally I use a 45/70 for big game. I am very fond of the round, cast my own boolits for it, and my LA rifle is mighty nice in the timber being as compact as it is.
 
I use a .300 Win Mag for elk. I'm old and small, but I really like my .300 Win Mag with Nosler 180 gr Protected Point Partition bullets (handloads sighted 2.5-2.75" high at 100 yards.) Generally I'd recommend a .30-06 for most hunters, or a 7mm Rem Mag. A .270, .280, or .308 will certainly kill any elk but I prefer a flatter shooting long range cartridge when I face the expense of an outfitted elk hunt.
 
I completely disagree. 400 yards is MUCH harder than "2x 200 yards".

I can make shots all day every day on woodchucks at 200 yards. Easy. I'm angry if I miss at that distance. I can almost shoot them in the eye at 200. At 400 yards I'm lucky to hit the whole animal, never have actually.

Under "ideal", unchanging conditions, bipod, sandbag, no stress, no rush, my groups double in MOA between 200 and 400.

Going from "I can shoot 2" at 200 yards at the range, with sandbag and a shooting table under cover, with no pressure and no rush." to shooting at an animal at 400 yards that might leave at any second, using a tree branch for a rest, judging wind across a valley, with my heart pounding...

No, I consider that poor judgement, at best.
Click to expand...

Well, if you throw enough stuff in there that I didn't say I'm sure you will be correct.

I assume he is bright enough to know that the conditions he is shooting in will need to be the same for different ranges to make a comparison.

If he can't shoot but a 10 inch group at 200 yards I bet he can figure the rest of it out.

I can shoot a better group proportionately at 400 yards than I can at 200 most of the time depending on the wind.
 
What you said isn't really relevant. The OP said "I've never shot anything beyond 200 yards." and "expect 250-500 yards."

Never.

Shot anything.

Beyond 200 yards.

It is unethical to shoot animals at distances you've never shot. Never shot anything. Not, "not this gun", not, "not this caliber", not "woodchucks but not elk"...

Anything.

400 yards is not easy. The first bullet someone fires at that distance should NOT be at a live target.

400 is much harder than 200 and 500 is much harder than 400. Taking those shots without practice would be unethical.
 
400 yards is not easy. The first bullet someone fires at that distance should NOT be at a live target.
__________________
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that would be the best. He may have nowhere to practice at 400 yards. But, the laws of physics are not going to change and if he is an excellent marksman at 200 yards he is an excellent marksman at 400 yards. Bullets don't just decide to take a detour.
 
So, you have a 308. It is a fine 300 yd Elk gun. You need to know how you shoot prone, over your backpack, etc to know how far you can shoot.

Any guide worth his pay can get you within 250 yards of a trophy bull. More likely 100. They are not magical people, they just chase the same Elk everyday across the same piece of land. A good guide should know where the elk are going before they do.

I hope this guide is not seriously expecting clients to shoot 500 yd elk. That is what commoners like I get because they have been chased all day on private land before the show themselves 600 yards from me! Guides get paid to guide, not point out unshootable elk!

Back to real elk rifles. There are 2 kinds....
Point and shoot....these are guns you sight in at 250 - 300 yds and just aim center of vitals to 400 and top of elk at 500 with practice. They are 300 win mag, 270 WSM, 7mm STW, 300 weatherby, etc. they all are big recoil hard to shoot guns and i find when i put a paper plate at 400 yards, their owners miss it!

Next, are the big enough to kill, small enough to shoot...these are 308, 30'06, 7mm Rem Mag, 338 Federal, 270 Win, 280 Rem, etc. these too with the right bullets kill Elk out to 500 yards, If you can tape a range card on your arm, learn to range(or laser range elk) and learn tricks about scope adjustment or hold over. You need to practice a bit more, read the wind a little better and quit trying to wing(as in wing and a prayer) shooting elk at 500 yards.

Just to set the record straight, I shoot a Savage 12BVSS in 300 WSM at all big game. It has a Burris XTR 3-12 with Mildots and tactical turrets. It weighs 14.5 lbs and shoots fine off my backpack. Prone 300 yd hunting groups are a breeze. It is amazing what a couple of pounds does to reduce recoil and solidify your rest. It was designed as a 600 yd elk gun. All I need now is 600 yds to practice at!
 
I use a 300 weatherby mag only out of availability not out of necessity. I would prefer a 7mm rem mag which has similar ballistics just with lighter bullets and has much less felt recoil.


It is unethical to shoot animals at distances you've never shot. Never shot anything. Not, "not this gun", not, "not this caliber", not "woodchucks but not elk"...
Click to expand...

with all due respect Brian,
my first kill was a small whitetail doe at 300 yards. that is well beyond my usual comfort zone and up to that point I did all my shooting at 100 yards. albeit I was desperate as it was getting dark on the last day of hunting season but when I lined her up in my cross hairs I didn't have the slightest doubt in the shot, I just held a little high and nailed her right through the heart.

it is unethical to take a shot that you are not certain you can make, not to take a shot that you haven't tried to take. if you know your bullet drop, wind drift, and FTLBs, have a good idea of the range and can make a good determination of where that bullet needs to go then it is not unethical to move from a 200 yard max to a 500 yard max. it is when you see that giant bull that you aren't sure if you can take down and take the shot anyway that it becomes unethical. mindset is crucial, hunting is not an exact science and HUNTING ETHICS ARE NEVER BLACK AND WHITE.
 
Last edited:
Back to real elk rifles. There are 2 kinds....
Point and shoot....these are guns you sight in at 250 - 300 yds and just aim center of vitals to 400 and top of elk at 500 with practice. They are 300 win mag, 270 WSM, 7mm STW, 300 weatherby, etc. they all are big recoil hard to shoot guns and i find when i put a paper plate at 400 yards, their owners miss it!
Click to expand...

With all due respect, my experience has been quite different. I'm 5'5", 155 lbs. I intended to buy a 7mm Rem. Mag. Browning A-Bolt SS LH, but the dealer had only a .300 Win. Mag. The first 30 shots from a bench with factory ammo were terrible: 1 3/16" to 4 1/8". First handloads: 3/8" to 7/8". The rifle consistently shoots MOA 3 shot groups with my best handloads (IMR 4831 and Nosler 180 gr. Partition Protected Point). I've taken elk with it (all one shot kills) and one small black bear in the Bob Marshall Wilderness (about 120 lbs.) at over 400 yards. Nevertheless, I honestly believe a .30-06 is the best cartridge for a hunter with limited mountain hunting experience (and I prefer a guide who discourages shots that are too long or too likely to be blown off by the wind.)
 
TheDutchman19, Since your friend gave you yardage and what caliber he's shooting didn't you talk to him about what you should use and yardage your comfortable at?

I hunt some fairly open country here (C0) for elk and I'm sure not taking someone where I hunt unless their willing take those shots and can hit something at that yardage.
 
7MM Remington Magnum.

But since you already have a .308 the Caliber maters less than the shooter.

If you can hit a pie plate at 400 yards 80% of the time use your .308 with 180 Grain Bullets.

If not practice more with your .308. Even a .375 H&H Magnum doesn't kill an elk much quicker than a good hit from a .30-30 Winchester closer than 100 Yards.
 
Theres a lady probably in her late 60s that runs a restaurant in kaycee wy she takes an elk home every year with a .243 that .308 will be fine.lol
 
There is no doubt that would be the best. He may have nowhere to practice at 400 yards. But, the laws of physics are not going to change and if he is an excellent marksman at 200 yards he is an excellent marksman at 400 yards. Bullets don't just decide to take a detour.
Click to expand...

The bullets WILL be affected by wind and gravity. A 180gr bullet out of a .308 moreso than many, due to lower initial velocity (more time to be affected).

If you have never shot at paper at ranges expected in the hunt, with the bullet and gun you'll be using, under field conditions, then you have no business shooting at a live animal with that rig at that range.
 
If a man can shoot a 2 inch group at 200 yards he doesn't have to practice at 400 yards to make that shot. There are plenty of programs that will tell you where you will be at longer ranges accurately enough for elk size game.
Click to expand...

You betcha:

There is a lot of BC programs that will tell you "shoulda, coulda, woulda" but that's on paper.

The BC programs wont make you hold your rifle steady, they wont compensate for being winded after climbing a hill at 8000 ft.

The "if you can shoot a 2 inch group you don't have to practice at 400" is back-wards".

You practice a lot at 400 you'll be good to go at 200.

I do a lot of long range shooting, past 1000 yards. Been doing it for about 35+ years in competition.

So I figure I'm good to 300 yards.

Too many things to go wrong at extended ranges, mis calculating wind, switching down range, not taking angles into account, temps etc etc, and that isn't taking account of shooter error when pulling the trigger.

We can all sand bag a rifle to a bench and shoot little bitty groups. But at altitude, after climbing a hill, from leaning against a tree, or kneeling etc etc we'd be lucky to hold 5 MOA.

The vital area of the average elk is about 15 inches. If you're holding 5 MOA, you "should" (and that's a big SHOULD) be good to 300 yards.

Sight your rifle in. Run around a bit, then plop down to a kneeling position, leaning against a tree or something and shoot a 5 shot group at 100 yards and see the size.

If you can constantly do that and hold under 5 MOA, you're a better man then me.

You read all the time about the super long range shots on game. Funny you never hear about the muffed shots, wounded game running off to die a painful death.

Think back, how many "misses" do you read about on the Internet? Who post about gut shooting and loosing a nice elks?
 
I took a quick look at a ballistics table for a 180 gr bullet (a Sierra GameKing- not a particularly tough "controlled expansion" bullet, mind you, just what I have handy).... even with a BC above .500, which many of the controlled expansion bullets won't have, you are looking at more than 2 feet of drop @ 400 (more than 4 feet @ 500!) with a 200 yard zero ... and more than a foot of wind drift with a 90 degree 10 mph wind..... I'm thinking maybe a 180 gr bullet to 4-500 would be beyond the .308 WIN, particularly for someone who has never shot that distance.

It is not as simple as settling the crosshairs and squeezing the trigger at that range. You have to know your trajectory and the exact range, and be able to read the wind.... with a faster (and/or more efficient) bullet these variables are lessened, but they are still there.
 
You betcha:

There is a lot of BC programs that will tell you "shoulda, coulda, woulda" but that's on paper.

The BC programs wont make you hold your rifle steady, they wont compensate for being winded after climbing a hill at 8000 ft.

The "if you can shoot a 2 inch group you don't have to practice at 400" is back-wards".

You practice a lot at 400 you'll be good to go at 200.

I do a lot of long range shooting, past 1000 yards. Been doing it for about 35+ years in competition.

So I figure I'm good to 300 yards.

Too many things to go wrong at extended ranges, mis calculating wind, switching down range, not taking angles into account, temps etc etc, and that isn't taking account of shooter error when pulling the trigger.

We can all sand bag a rifle to a bench and shoot little bitty groups. But at altitude, after climbing a hill, from leaning against a tree, or kneeling etc etc we'd be lucky to hold 5 MOA.

The vital area of the average elk is about 15 inches. If you're holding 5 MOA, you "should" (and that's a big SHOULD) be good to 300 yards.

Sight your rifle in. Run around a bit, then plop down to a kneeling position, leaning against a tree or something and shoot a 5 shot group at 100 yards and see the size.

If you can constantly do that and hold under 5 MOA, you're a better man then me.

You read all the time about the super long range shots on game. Funny you never hear about the muffed shots, wounded game running off to die a painful death.

Think back, how many "misses" do you read about on the Internet? Who post about gut shooting and loosing a nice elks?
__________________
Click to expand...
You like Peetza are thowing in stuff that I didn't say. I suspect I have been shooting longer than you have although not as much I'm sure, but at least once a week at different ranges back in the early seventies. More when the mood hits me now. And guess what, the bullets went right where the data said they would go.

I never said that you could compare shooting your gun in a vice to shooting hanging upside down by a tree limb in a hurricane which is sort of the strawman ya'll are throwing in there.

There is no reason why a man should get a substantially different MOA at 400 than he does at 200 unless the wind is squirrely, which is what I said to start with. And, the bullet drop is going to be plenty close to what the data says for elk size game.

And, I can't imagine anybody taking a 400 yard shot on anything without a good rest of some sort. My back pack and hunting coat work just fine.

If the man can't hit a paint can at 200 yards he has no business taking a 400 yard shot. But, I bet he knows that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top