Your Advice Saved Me From An Attack

LE contacts, 911 calls.....

I can't speak for all areas of the USA, but in my metro area, calling 911 first or being the first person to speak to a responding officer/deputy does not make you the victim or complainant. I've seen it first hand not only as a citizen but as a on duty security officer responding to a call for service.
Most 911 calls are recorded & time-date stamped. If you call, let the dispatcher know your exact location(mail address if you know it) & that you are armed or have a valid CCW/gun permit. This not only expedites the LE response, it will document that you are not a criminal or have criminal intent.
You also need to be aware of the responding officers/deputies side. They are going into a unsafe situation or are fully unaware of who or what is going on.
Try to remain calm & be able to assist the officers/first responders.
If you had a lethal force event you need to keep your civil rights & legal issues in mind.
That to me was one of GZ's big mistakes early on. He took the Sanford PD detectives at their word & volunteered a lot of information.
 
(Stress Inoculation is one of the most important principles in surviving a threatening and/or lethal force encounter. It's also one of the hardest to simulate. This situation will work to your advantage because every time you experience something, the less it will effect you the next time)
Brian, this is so true! Having spent 5 years working on the door, at Liverpool UK Night Clubs, I have been involved in lots! Of fights.

First rule, you tend to win the ones you start! This might not be an American Rule, but was certainly a rule in Liverpool 1960-1965.

One thing I do not experience is the fear people talk about, or even the "Freezing" But just slide in to aggression, instantly. I am not from round here. Done this aggression stuff a lot.

You tend to instantly asses the threat! No weapons visible, how close are they?
More than one? Your position, physically. At 78 YOA, boxing is not happening!

The incident here, our Guy was on private property he had been invited to be, the other person, had not, was trespassing.

No way would I have stayed in the car, me out, lock doors (a button) slam door. Step to the front of my vehicle, a Jeep, pistol out, Glock 19, along side leg. Blue Tooth ear piece, press, say Police, and the phone calls 911.

Tell the Gentleman he is trespassing, leave now. It would then unfold as it would? Knowing the radio room would be recording every word, watch how I said, and what I said. Sorry not Radio room in the US, Dispatch.
 
Smart911.com ...

This is why I advocate more US locations go with www.smart911.com . Citizens can add details or information to their local 911/LE agency & speed up responses.
The company that runs the service does not share or market the details & it cancels out after 6mo.
A LE officer who takes the call for service can have more details before they arrive.
Some cops I have talked to claim they can't get the unedited 911 calls to listen to at the scene, but in 2014 Id think there are software systems or LE only programs to let officers do it.

Clyde
 
To the OP:

I can only hope any of us can handle a situation as well as you did.

You now know how you will react the next time.

In the end, you and your family are safe and you did your main purpose as a husband/father. PROTECT YOUR FAMILY.
 
The "aggressive tailgater" is a very common incident. I myself have had to make the difficult decision that you are forced to make on impulse in regards to dealing with this particular situation. So many avenues that we have heard about in the past, "drive to a police station", "lock your doors, park the car, ready your weapon and call the police", "keep driving and call the police", etc.

There are so many variables to this situation that there is no universal answer for what specific actions to take. The best thing to do overall, is use good judgment.

1. A few years ago, I was in a Walmart parking lot, and turned into a lane with markings to drive opposite the direction I was driving, no one was in any danger, the lot was new, but an overzealous male driving a van saw this and began driving erratically behind my vehicle, honking his horn and attempting to wave me over. I drove to an empty part of the lot towards the back, and I noticed that there was a child most likely not many more than ten years old, sitting in the front passenger seat. The child looked scared. I made sure my doors were locked as the vehicle advanced. At the last minute, I pulled out of that lot and drove into another parking lot. I realized that even though my option of retreat was being blocked and there was a clearly ill intent (in the state I reside in, a firearm can be used to prevent or stop the commission of a felony), I had no witness. If I were to draw my weapon to ready, the only witnesses at that point were that boy, and a person who was most likely his father. I parked at a coffee shop and called my father, who was home a mile away. My father drove to where I was, and while he was en route I called the local police department. My father arrived, the other driver saw his truck pull up to my car, and that driver decided to leave. The right choice is the one that protects you, and whoever is with you.

2.In another situation similar, this time I was without a firearm. I was with a now ex-girlfriend and I was driving in an area I was unfamiliar with. An enraged driver began chasing us through a suburban townhouse complex around 10pm. I did the only thing I could think of: Broke every single traffic law I could, laying on the horn while doing so, in an effort to attract attention and hopefully generate a police call. At the beginning I had come to a stop as if to let the driver approach me, and when he ran towards the car I sped off... this didn't work well because I was unfamiliar with the area". I was blowing stop signs at 50mph in residential zones and such. Finally I hopped a curb in front of gas station, jumped out, locked the doors and ran inside and yelled call the police. They did. For some reason, it appeared that a tactical unit was already out looking for this guy.

3. I was leaving work and pulled onto the highway, a car pulled up behind my truck and began immediately tailgating. I knew the vehicle, and the driver, he was a drug dealer who I later found out was harassing everyone because he thought someone he worked with had ratted him out to management for selling speed to other employees. I immediately pulled into an empty parking lot, drove fast towards the middle, retrieved a full size .357 from my glovebox, and stepped behind my truck, revolver out of view. The car stopped just outside the parking lot then they sped away as fast as they could.

Every situation has different variables. Who, what, when, why, where and how.

The advice I give to friends when this subject has come up, based on what I have personally experienced is as follows:

1. Get attention. Do whatever you can to draw attention to your situation. If you can safely run a red light and get pulled over, better to have a traffic fine than a force use situation. Driving to a police station has been mentioned, but consider driving to a public place like a strip mall or some place you know is open. You may know how to get to the police station in the city you live in, but what about 5 cities over? There may be a higher probability of you knowing how to get to a strip mall.


2. Find a tactical advantage. If you stop, and they get out, stay in your vehicle! they are now out of their vehicle, and you now have the option of putting the pedal to the metal and getting away from them. If you don't know know the area, stay on the main roads/highway/freeway. If you know an area, use that to your benefit.


3. Call the police as soon as you can. Choose your words carefully, you want your call prioritized. "I think I am being followed" will not get the same interest as "I am being chased, I am really scared". One thing to remember is that banks often have cameras that are monitored on live feed. Driving into a bank drive up is an easy way to get your situation put on camera.

4. Keeping a can of pepper spray around can change an entire situation. Pepper spray is at a different place in the standard use of force continuum, and generally doesn't need the same justification as using a firearm. I work in the private security industry and have to follow a use of force continuum, I am very much a proponent of using pepper spray.
 
I don't see any section of NY Penal Code that would prohibit what the OP did. Preparing to defend yourself in the face of an obviously imminent assault is not illegal

Actually, that may not be correct, but it would be really hard to prove because the only witness is the aggressor and he would be confessing to chasing him. It's called menacing. What the other guy did could also be considered menacing. Revealing your gun by accident is not menacing, but it is if it's intentional. So you can shoot someone in self-defense, but you can't scare him. Go figure.

S 120.14 Menacing in the second degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person
in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death
by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to
be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm;
or
2. He or she repeatedly follows a person or engages in a course of
conduct or repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally
placing or attempting to place another person in reasonable fear of
physical injury, serious physical injury or death; or​
 
GJSchulze wrote;
Actually, that may not be correct, but it would be really hard to prove because the only witness is the aggressor and he would be confessing to chasing him. It's called menacing. What the other guy did could also be considered menacing. Revealing your gun by accident is not menacing, but it is if it's intentional. So you can shoot someone in self-defense, but you can't scare him. Go figure.


What the OP did was clearly not "menacing" by definition. The attack was imminent, The OP drew and, was prepared to fire on the would-be attacker. The BG ( wisely ) realized he had brought an inferior weapon to the fight and broke off the attack. The OP ( also wisely ) called LE immediately and faithfully described the incident.

The spirit of that law is to prohibit someone from using any weapon as an "idle threat" or for the purpose of "intimidation"

The take away is; Be the first to call LE and get the story straight.
Many States have similar laws ( IE; CA calls it "making terroristic threats" ) but, they are seldom invoked in a true self-defense situation IME.
 
Thanks to the OP for describing what happened and glad you and your family are safe... and thanks for asking for comments... its allowed a lot of us to read and understand a lot from this moment to apply to our own understanding of the use or proposed use of deadly force.
 
GJSchulze said:
So you can shoot someone in self-defense, but you can't scare him. Go figure.

Well, that would be "defense of justification". Just like shooting someone is generally against the law but can be completely legal, so can be "menacing".
 
What the OP did was clearly not "menacing" by definition. The attack was imminent

BY NYS penal code I would say that, by definition of the penal code, it is menacing. That statute does not mention any mitigating exceptions. Any "spirit of the law" is pretty much up to the LEO and legal people, not you.

However, as Brian pointed out
defense of justification

is a mitigating circumstance under article 35. You have to prove that the other person is the initial aggressor to use this. Just like self defense, you have to prove that you were in imminent danger. The other guy could just claim something else and it would be his word against the OP's. I would suggest this is one reason that self defense without firing a shot is not reported very often because you are at the mercy of the LEO, so if you are now safe, why report it when nothing will be done?

But this didn't happen in NYS, so YMMV. And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot. Clearly there are circumstances under which you could show your gun to dissuade the person. I would prefer that, but if the person is close enough to reach you before you draw, you better shoot.
 
Horn

I agree -no Monday morning QB, you did a fabulous job of protecting your family. You should be proud, You are not a victim!

Consider Car horns are great. Makes lots of people into witnesses even if it doesn't deter the attacker. You can have one hand on the gun and one on the horn even standing outside the car, but of course others will argue that could p**s him off more. No one can be right for the situation except you.

I'm not going to get into hand to hand combat, and that is what it is!

Great job.
 
I am glad you and your family are all right.

The training company Shivworks has a course called Managing Unknown Contacts. MUC is all about how to talk to people in violent situations to hopefully keep it from becoming a fight/gun fight, while getting to or maintaining the most advantageous position you can manage.

I would suggest this. It is also part of any other course they teach. Check their schedule and see if they have any classes nearby. As far as I know Shivworks is the only group teaching this aspect of surviving a violent encounter.
 
GJSchulze said:
...And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot....
And the is wrong.

In general you should not draw your gun unless you've concluded that shooting is immediately necessary and justified. But the situation can change quickly upon presentation of your gun, and it's possible that once you have presented your gun the situation may have changed to the point that immediately shooting is not necessary, nor could it be justified.
 
In general you should not draw your gun unless you've concluded that shooting is immediately necessary and justified.

That's sort of saying the same thing, but with a different slant. The key is how long do you have to make the decision not to shoot? I think if you are taken unaware you either draw and shoot or don't draw. If you are paying attention so that you have some extra time, you can start your draw and determine if the BG is going to run.

While I've seen video's of training using Simunitions that put you in scenarios where you have a choice to react without shooting when it's possible, only a very few people get that kind of training.
 
Originally Posted by GJSchulze
...And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot....
I think people should have the sense to know the instructor was talking rubbish without being told. Every situation is different requiring a different response, If an instructor is teaching that then he shouldn't be instructing , in case someone takes him at his word and shoots when they didn't need to. Example you pull your firearm , the bad guy runs shoot him anyway, he puts his hands up shoot him , etc.
 
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GJSchulze Wrote;
That's sort of saying the same thing, but with a different slant.

No Sir, it is a different statement entirely. When you attempt to parse a statement, it loses context, Let's review the Counselors statement in context.

Frank Ettin Wrote;
In general you should not draw your gun unless you've concluded that shooting is immediately necessary and justified.

Meaning there is a clear, and present danger, you are in fear of death, or grave injury, the attack at that time is imminent. Mr. Ettin then went on to qualify his statement with information that added the needed context.

Frank Ettin Wrote;
But the situation can change quickly upon presentation of your gun, and it's possible that once you have presented your gun the situation may have changed to the point that immediately shooting is not necessary, nor could it be justified.

As Frank added, these situations are not "black and white" they are dynamic by nature. In the case of the OP, the threat ceased to be a threat once he was "menaced" (your term ) into a hasty retreat.

While at first the threat was clear, and drawing and being prepared to fire was immediately necessary and justified, the dynamic of the situation changed immediately. Once the attacker retreated, the threat, and thus the justification for firing, both disappeared.

GJSchulze Wrote;
my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot

Had our OP followed this "sketchy" advice he likely would have fired in an un-justifiable manner and, have a world of legal troubles at the moment.
 
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By the OP;

By the time I decided to reach for my gun, he was only 3 feet away. I gripped my 9mm Beretta Nano that I carried inside the waist band. He noticed and immediately stopped. Now he was about 2 feet away.

He asked me if I wanted to shoot him. All I said was get away from me, get away from my family. I learned that when the adrenaline is pumping, I didn't watch his face, I watched his chest - his heart. I was prepared to draw and shoot. Thankfully, he didn't come any closer and I didn't have to draw.

Gentlemen, the OP never drew his handgun.
 
Originally Posted by GJSchulze
...And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot....

And although this is all GJSchulze gave us in his post, I would say it's a fair bet that this wasn't the only thing he had to say and that in one way or another we are taking it out of context. This horse never needed a beatin.
 
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