Yosemite Steve
New member
I'm all ears!
Yosemite Steve's Savage 110 Issues :P
- Thread starter Yosemite Steve
- Start date
Sure thing. Post it up! There is a reason Saami has headspace specifications.
Explain the limitations of the brass thinning/stretching far beyond what's intended...if .016 of air isn't a problem- at what point does it become one? .020? .030? 1/4"?
Even if it WERE safe- and I am not in agreement that it is- the brass would need to be segregated, separate load workups, and separate neck-size only. Might as well own another rifle.
All for a few pieces of brass....
I started doing it like this back in the early 70s and then Sierra wrote an article on it.
The link to Sierra's fire forming instructions written by Duane Siercks.
https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2016/09/14/reloading-101-fireforming-cases/
Don't let the 0.016" short cases set you back. Follow the instructions.
I have used H4895 & IMR4895 in the 30-06 with 150 gr and 165 gr bullets.
tobnpr, I don't know what your experience levels are, but you are spouting information that is not warranted.
The link to Sierra's fire forming instructions written by Duane Siercks.
https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2016/09/14/reloading-101-fireforming-cases/
Don't let the 0.016" short cases set you back. Follow the instructions.
I have used H4895 & IMR4895 in the 30-06 with 150 gr and 165 gr bullets.
tobnpr, I don't know what your experience levels are, but you are spouting information that is not warranted.
Yosemite Steve
New member
That is the article I just finished reading. 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Tobnpr has a good point in that now, in order to fire form the brass I must do some things. Is it worth the effort? 47 rounds of bullets + 47 primers + 47 powder charges + extra time and care given to reloading + going to the range and shooting + going back and taking extra time to carefully inspect the brass = $25 and 4 to 6 hours. Cost of new brass $50.
VS.
Something to tinker with + learn something in the process + use that experience to help load more accurate ammo in the future.
The question for me is this? How big of a strain is the brass taking from this? It was fire formed once, reduced by .016" at the shoulder and will now be pushed back to it's original fire formed dimensions. I can see no warning signs on the brass that was fired that pushed the shoulder forward .013". Annealing is not an option for me at this point as I do not have a reliable scientific method to do so.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Tobnpr has a good point in that now, in order to fire form the brass I must do some things. Is it worth the effort? 47 rounds of bullets + 47 primers + 47 powder charges + extra time and care given to reloading + going to the range and shooting + going back and taking extra time to carefully inspect the brass = $25 and 4 to 6 hours. Cost of new brass $50.
VS.
Something to tinker with + learn something in the process + use that experience to help load more accurate ammo in the future.
The question for me is this? How big of a strain is the brass taking from this? It was fire formed once, reduced by .016" at the shoulder and will now be pushed back to it's original fire formed dimensions. I can see no warning signs on the brass that was fired that pushed the shoulder forward .013". Annealing is not an option for me at this point as I do not have a reliable scientific method to do so.
When I was wildcatting in the early to late 70s, I probably fire formed at least 3,000 cases with not one problem.
Millions of brass cases have been fire formed by many experimenters over the years.
It is a safe and economical process when performed properly and with all applicable safety practices.
Sometimes, as mentioned in the second sentence, it is the only way you are going to get suitable brass for your projects.
I have never, and will never, used cream of wheat.
Use of cast bullets is another viable means of completing the task when jammed approximately 0.015" into the lands.
Millions of brass cases have been fire formed by many experimenters over the years.
It is a safe and economical process when performed properly and with all applicable safety practices.
Sometimes, as mentioned in the second sentence, it is the only way you are going to get suitable brass for your projects.
I have never, and will never, used cream of wheat.
Use of cast bullets is another viable means of completing the task when jammed approximately 0.015" into the lands.
Yosemite Steve
New member
My understanding is that if I seat a bullet to the lands the case cannot be pushed forward when fired where it would then form to the chamber and stretch backwards towards the base. Would the brass then stretch towards the shoulder or would it simply reform itself to the shoulder of the chamber or both?
Holding the case against the bolt face is the only way fire forming will work for me.
Since your brass is already somewhat conformed to your chamber, the brass will flow forward 0.016" and form a new shoulder.
When manufacturers make brass, they, in a sense, hammer forge the brass and then press into forming dies so to speak.
Sizing down is always better than forming up, but both work and both have been done this way for many years by many people, myself included.
As previously mentioned, check the cases for internal stresses. A bore scope is ideal for this, but the pick or paper clip trick works satisfactorily. You could even take your method of testing to the range with you and check the first few right after firing.
If you have a rifle with a freebore (I know from earlier posts that you do not), then you might be hosed and have to use other measures. That is when I prefer to use long cast bullets. Some would use the cream of wheat method. I think HiBC (I may be mistaken on who did) has posted earlier on this method.
I make my own molds for the long cast bullets so it is not a problem for me.
Since your brass is already somewhat conformed to your chamber, the brass will flow forward 0.016" and form a new shoulder.
When manufacturers make brass, they, in a sense, hammer forge the brass and then press into forming dies so to speak.
Sizing down is always better than forming up, but both work and both have been done this way for many years by many people, myself included.
As previously mentioned, check the cases for internal stresses. A bore scope is ideal for this, but the pick or paper clip trick works satisfactorily. You could even take your method of testing to the range with you and check the first few right after firing.
If you have a rifle with a freebore (I know from earlier posts that you do not), then you might be hosed and have to use other measures. That is when I prefer to use long cast bullets. Some would use the cream of wheat method. I think HiBC (I may be mistaken on who did) has posted earlier on this method.
I make my own molds for the long cast bullets so it is not a problem for me.
I don't believe I "spouted" anything incorrect.
I read your linked article, it's about fireforming.
This isn't at all about simple fireforming- I'm no expert in internal ballistics- but that much is sure.
The OP TRIMMED a ton of brass, from cases that were too long to headspace within tolerance to his rifle.
That brass won't miraculously regenerate when it's fired in a now-spec rifle. It's lying next to his case trimmer- and it's not coming back.
So where does the extra length, after the case is fired again, come from?
The casehead- which will now be thinner than before.
How much? You're the expert- tell me. What's the equivalence to brass life/material lost through shooting/ resizing cases in normal processes?
Even if only neck sized from here,, the casehead will still stretch more, the cases will still keep stretching, and they'll still need to be trimmed eventually. More brass lost, from a casehead that had already been thinned prematurely by what was done to it.
You can only thin a casehead "so much", before it separates. Now, if anything I've just stated isn't fact- be specific and point it out, explain why.
This isn't like fireforming to a wildcat chamber and then sizing with custom dies, different animal altogether. I'm not an engineer, I'm in no way qualified to assess the " damage" done to the original brass in terms of potential life (of the brass) or safety- but I DO know, it's there, and it's not insignificant.
Yosemite Steve
New member
I cut open one of the Nosler cases that had the shoulder pushed back when I shaved .010" off the shell holder and performed a full size. This is a round that was fired and the case head to shoulder became .013" longer from the firing. I can see no weak areas or stretching that occurred in one place such as what happens during case head separation.
My intended case head to shoulder datum length will be .017" longer than the brass that I would like to salvage. It is a large space but if the bullet is seated on the lands the case will remain against the bolt face and the shoulder should be what is reformed. I do wonder about the neck however. The case length is 2.480" With this particular fire forming if it does what I think it will do the neck will be shorter because it will become part of the shoulder. The length of the previous case that was fired became 2.490" because the case stretched and the shoulder did not change it's form or did so very little.
My intended case head to shoulder datum length will be .017" longer than the brass that I would like to salvage. It is a large space but if the bullet is seated on the lands the case will remain against the bolt face and the shoulder should be what is reformed. I do wonder about the neck however. The case length is 2.480" With this particular fire forming if it does what I think it will do the neck will be shorter because it will become part of the shoulder. The length of the previous case that was fired became 2.490" because the case stretched and the shoulder did not change it's form or did so very little.
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Yosemite Steve
New member
Tobnpr was just trying to look out for my safety. It's all good. Experiments are often not safe. Unknowns are scary and often not safe.
It can come from the neck, even if he has trimmed the brass. The formed brass will have a shorter neck. Not ideal but it ok. A few firings later it will grow back.
-TL
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