Yosemite Steve's Savage 110 Issues :P

Not having Saami minimum headspace isn't an issue for you now because you're handloading- and reducing datum length below spec to work with the short headspace available.

Not a problem necessarily, as long as you don't plan on selling the rifle or being assured any factory ammo will run in it. But, that's the limitation currently. I'll often use a sized case from customers that handload to set the headspace in lieu of a go gauge, with the above caveat.

Been a long day, but I'm still trying to understand how the shortened case is giving you nearly two full grains more capacity than the "spec" cases, given the shoulder angles are identical. What am I missing here

After re-reading, your OP I'm puzzled by something else.
You said you "ruled out headspace" as an issue related to the primers, I'm assuming you mean excessive as that would be the typical symptom. But- I don't see anywhere where you indicated you were experiencing excessive resistance to CLOSING the bolt on a loaded round in the chamber.

I know you were told that there was inadequate headspace with the new bolthead, but were you unable to chamber the Saami cases, or only able to close the bolt with a lot of resistance?
 
You said you "ruled out headspace" as an issue related to the primers, I'm assuming you mean excessive as that would be the typical symptom. But- I don't see anywhere where you indicated you were experiencing excessive resistance to CLOSING the bolt on a loaded round in the chamber.
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When I ruled out the headspace was before I tried the new bolt head. After the new bolt head was installed I was able to close on a factory case with a lot (too much force). The headspace was .007" shorter than the original, which would just close on a go. The orinal problem of the primers coming back a bit was due to a concave bolt face.

The fired case volume increase was for sure larger on the shortened cases . My only guess is that the pressure was so great that the chamber expanded and the brass with it, shrinking back to a larger diameter. Extraction was very stiff.

My problem with the shorter cases is that it throws off load minimums and maximums and creates a constant state of work arounds.
 
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I'm really suspect over the suggestion of an oversize chamber (assuming it wasn't cut oversize originally). Perhaps I missed it, but the explanation of the primer issue was the boltface- not overpressure. And to cause permanent expansion to a chamber- gotta be severe. Rarely heard of...

Simple enough to mike the case head of the fire formed brass and compare to new to check.

In any case, simple enough to deepen your chamber by 7 or 8 thou, if I'm wrong and the chamber has been deformed as you say you're going to have some severely overworked brass leaving it like that.
Just have the smith set back the breech fifty thou, deepen the chamber by the same amount to clean it up. Brand new chamber back to spec, not a costly exercise. JMHO, YMMV
 
I'm really suspect over the suggestion of an oversize chamber (assuming it wasn't cut oversize originally). Perhaps I missed it, but the explanation of the primer issue was the boltface- not overpressure. And to cause permanent expansion to a chamber- gotta be severe. Rarely heard of...
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I wasn't thinking permanent expansion of the chamber. What I was thinking was that the high pressure round temporarily expanded the chamber as it was fired and when it returned to it's original size the case was overly tight. Because the brass retracts as well the chamber must have expanded when the round was fired. Does that make sense? I did some rechecking and the brass was of a different brand for the two lengths. But... the volume increase was still bigger for the shortened brass.
 
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Short SAAMI
.470" .468" rim diameter
.338" .337" rear neck
.442" .441" rear shoulder
.453" .450" mid case dia

The Nosler - shortened brass stretched more.
 
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I and most everyone here could give two craps about datums and your exclusive rights to them.
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Short SAAMI
.470" .468" rim diameter
.338" .337" rear neck
.442" .441" rear shoulder
.453" .450" mid case dia
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I have no ideal what there is about datums that makes so many reloaders feel threatened. Again, the datum is not a line, it is a circle, it is a round hole. You should be able to measure the diameter of your cases in thousandths with an absolute distance from the head of the case or from the shoulder of the case etc.

It is not my fault you can not.

F. Guffey
 
Actually, Mr. Guffey,

A "datum" CAN be a line (or a point, or a surface, etc)....

It is any point of reference for measurement, not a shape. In context with brass, it can be the rim for a rimmed cartridge, the case mouth, belt, or midpoint of the shoulder (as being discussed here).
 
Actually,
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I do not make excuses, SAAMI furnishes datum information in diameters. The 30/06 datum diameter is .375", it is too bad a reloader looks at the location of the datum of the chamber and case drawing from the side. I gave up on trying to get a reloader to think in dimensions as in from the side, front and top.

Most reloaders have not moved beyond the arrow pointing at a line and then identifying it as the datum line. And I said it was not a line, I said it was a round hole/circle.

F. Guffey
 
It's good that you know what a datum is... it sucks that you but into every thread with it. The numbers i gave were just examples of various diameters to show differences in expansion. I don't really feel like the datum was relevant to what I was talking about. It was a shorter chamber. How much shorter did not matter to me at the moment.
 
My datum measurement for my cartridge is 2.0475 where the bolt handle begins to feel the cartridge with nothing on the bolt but the bolt head and handle. :D I know it's on the shorter end of the tolerances and will not accept my partial sized brass from before. Even though it's on the small end it should accept any factory 30-06 cartridge now right? Also is that where I should size my brass or should I go for .001" shorter?
 
Now my question is this: The brass that I resized for when I had the short chamber is .016" short of filling the chamber. It takes 4 pieces of masking tape on the head before it can be felt on the bolt handle closing the bolt with no firing pin or ejector. The tension is very light but it is there. I removed the 4 layers of tape in one piece and it measures .016" thick. Is the brass too short to use again or can it be fire formed back to usefulness? It's Nosler brass and wasn't cheap but I don't want to risk any safety.
 
Load it, shoot it, and measure it to set your size die. There is nothing that will prevent it from forming to the chamber. Some folks refer to this as fire forming.
 
Yosemite Steve said:
Now my question is this: The brass that I resized for when I had the short chamber is .016" short of filling the chamber. It takes 4 pieces of masking tape on the head before it can be felt on the bolt handle closing the bolt with no firing pin or ejector. The tension is very light but it is there. I removed the 4 layers of tape in one piece and it measures .016" thick. Is the brass too short to use again or can it be fire formed back to usefulness? It's Nosler brass and wasn't cheap but I don't want to risk any safety.
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0.016" head clearance is too much for my liking. For high power rifle I won't shoot more than 0.008”, 2 layers of masking tape.

If you still have unsized brass left, start using them and set aside the short brass. If you don't, then you will need to fire form the short brass with light loads back to fit the current chamber.

If you have only one rifle to load for, it is pretty simple really. You don't need gauges, datum, or any of that sort. Just screw in the die, size, and test, till the action closes with minimal head clearance. 0.002" for bolt action and 0.004" for semi auto. Bear in mind the die body thread is 14 tpi. Each turn is 0.071", 1/4 turn is 0.018".

Hope this helps. I have been handloading more than 20 calibers for my pile of milsurps junk. I don't have a single piece of gauge. I get 20 loads out of each batch of brass on regular basis.

But occasionally I will yell at the top of my lungs... Datum!!!

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 
Welp. I have 47 of them. I can use them for fouling shots. I will measure them as I go if I do. The R P and Winchester brass I have should keep me going for quite a while.
 
Now my question is this: The brass that I resized for when I had the short chamber is .016" short of filling the chamber. It takes 4 pieces of masking tape on the head before it can be felt on the bolt handle closing the bolt with no firing pin or ejector. The tension is very light but it is there. I removed the 4 layers of tape in one piece and it measures .016" thick. Is the brass too short to use again or can it be fire formed back to usefulness? It's Nosler brass and wasn't cheap but I don't want to risk any safety.
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You're jumping around here...
"for when I had the short chamber"... Last I read, you changed the bolthead, and ended up 8 thou short on headspace. Then, you ground your shell plate to jury rig the sizing die to the non-standard dimensions (I would never modify a shellp!ate or die by that much...couple of thou at most).

Did I miss the part where you had the chamber reamed to the correct depth to headspace properly with the new bolthead?

And btw...be sure your health/life insurance is current before you decide to pull the trigger on a .30-.06 round with .016 of air between it and your boltface.
 
And btw...be sure your health/life insurance is current before you decide to pull the trigger on a .30-.06 round with .016 of air between it and your boltface.
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Yeah I have been going over that in my head.

Did I miss the part where you had the chamber reamed to the correct depth to headspace properly with the new bolthead?
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You must have. The lugs were lapped and bolt face shaved down. It is a go! I can not afford any further gunsmithing at this point. Next time it will be re-barreling. I can get an identical unfired take off for $85.
 
Using a hammer and a 9mm case I was able to make my own datum line reference tool. It is not at .375 but it does give me consistent shoulder reference measurements.

Going back to where I had sized my Nosler brass to fit the chamber of my gun (when the chamber was shorter and the lugs were not lapped and lopsided) by grinding my shell holder back, those cases when fired gained in case head to (my) datum length by .013" on every one. At the same time those cases gained in total length from case head to end of neck by .007" to .009". Those that were shot are still .004" short of filling the chamber from bolt face to chamber datum.

My un-fired short sized cases are .017" short of meeting the length to fill my chamber end to end.

What I am getting from this information is that the .010" taken off the shell holder was too much. The bolt head being put on incorrectly and not having it's bevels cut into the lugs at the time were probably the equivalent of .004" of headspace when the gun was fired the brass expanded and (maybe) shrunk back .001". The necks gained between .004" and .006" in length so the case behind the shoulder had to have stretched between .007" and .009". This was twice fired Nosler brass. As much as I would not like to loose it I think it should go in the recycle bin.

Moving forward... I have yet to purchase a new shell holder. .010" was ground off. If I set it so that a .012" feeler gauge will snugly slide in between the shell holder and the base of the die my sized brass fits my chamber end to end with no play. I have seen where people say to give .001" to .002" play. Why? Won't that tiny bit of play allow the case to drop just slightly costing a smidge of accuracy? I have also read that to have the shoulder just touching is better. My ejector pin pushes the case to the shoulder of the chamber so the gap will always be at the case head. The firing pin cannot move the case forward more but when fired it will still slam back against the primer. I believe this is the cause of my flat primers. Question is how much headspace will cause a flat primer?
 
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And btw...be sure your health/life insurance is current before you decide to pull the trigger on a .30-.06 round with .016 of air between it and your boltface.
Yeah I have been going over that in my head.
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You need to read up on fire forming. No need to toss 47 perfectly good Norma brass cases.

If you need guidance, let me know.
 
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