Wrongfully Detained at Wal Mart

[Destructo6]

Fry's Electronics tries that receipt checking nonsense all the time. They require the little mark on the receipt in order to return anything.

If it's not an item I could return, like software, I walk straight through their checkpoint. As far as I'm concerned, I've paid my money, gone through checkpoint #1 (can't get to the door without going though the cash register line), and the item in the bag is mine, not subject to their whims.

The little guy in the above case apparently needed to learn that if he wants the power to arrest, he needs to be a sworn peace officer. His sentance was probably a bit more than I'd like, but that was up to the courts.

 

[dZ]

locking the fire doors with people inside is highly illegal

i would bet hitting the jam bar would of opened the doors

one good thing about sheeple
you can get them stampeding pretty easy

a loud "this is bull****!
let me out now"
and an exit via the nearest door
would of been a good test of the patrons

 

[Waitone]

About two years ago I completely stopped shopping at Walmart.

Reason 1>low prices is meaningless if you can't give your money at the check-out which is profoundly understaffed.
Reason 2>Sam's Club does the door checker thing when leaving. I choose to put up with it because of shorter check out lines and I can get products at Sam's generally not available elsewhere at the same or better price.

Then my local Walmart started the door check and I kissed them off. I ain't waiting to check out then be frisked at the door when I leave. Walmart Inc. lost me as a customer.

I can't wait until Costco opens so I can burn my Sam's card!

 

[Dagny]

Pardon my old-time logical assumption

The following applies to any store.
It was the way I was brought up because that's the way stores were designed or at least they way they operated if they did not have the room to design them with a group of checkOUTs with no merchandise between the checkouts and the exits.
After you go through the checkout - that's check-OUT you take your bagged or carted merchandise and leave. No turning around and wandering through the store again without depositing your bags in your vehicle and coming back emptyhanded.
Then it started with really big stuff like 50lb sacks of dogfood or 5 gallon jugs of water - which makes buying them tricky since now they now scan everything (or try to). It used to be that you could just tell the checker to add a 50lb sack of Purina Hi-Pro and you'd pick it up (more like roll it onto the rack under your cart) on the way out. Sometimes you can still do that since they have a list of the UPC codes for the big stuff in that zone between the checkout and the doors.
But now the big stores have sales counters all over the store. You can buy a bag of stuff and wander about - obviously opening up the possibility of stuffing more things in your bag. I never did feel comfortable with that unless they had special staplers to seal the bag up so you'd have defense against suspicious employees.
Given the above hassles reported by TFL'ers, wouldn't it be simpler to have controlled checkouts by the exits and no more of these sales counters (can't call 'em cash registers any more) in every department?
But there again is an inventory control reason for a checkout at the jewelry department. Can they expect everyone to honestly take their tiny package to the front checkout rather than stuffing it in their purse and leaving?
Little mom and pops don't have that problem. Their checkout is the only checkout and they can sell you an expensive little item and watch you leave the store.
Darn the big, impersonal places.
I second the motion
DON"T SHOP AT SUPERSTORES!

 

[Mike Irwin]

Good lord...

I have, not ONCE, encountered any of the things that everyone is talking about at the WalMarts in either Fair Lakes Plaza in Fairfax, Virginia, or the one in Lewistown, Pennsylvania.

Moderately friendly people (especially at the one in Lewistown), well staffed checkouts, no people checking reciepts/bags, etc.

Even if they were double checking reciepts, which I don't really like at all, I don't get bent about it.

Why?

I've gotten a lot less ornery about the LITTLE annoyances in life now that I carry a gun regularly.

As for WalMart driving the local businesses out of business... The face of capitalism, pure and simple.

And quite frankly, if anyone is to blame, it's not WalMart's fault for moving in. It's the local resident's fault for not supporting their own local people. No one is forcing local residents to shop at the WalMart in preference over the local shops.

More than once local residents have banded together to keep a WalMart or Target from opening in a community.

 

[lonegunman]

So what would happen if you just walked straight through and didnt let them check your receipt?

I guess they could ban you from the store, since its private property, but anything else?

 

[AugustWest]

PErsonally, I'm willing to pay a little extra to support local businesses. Never been in a Walmart. Don't ever intend to be.

 

[Zundfolge]

If an employee placed his hands on YOUR mother and forcefully detained her, or your daughter, your saying you'd do nothing? Just let it ride?

No, I'd not "do nothing" but I wouldn't have the guy hauled off in handcuffs just because he offended my sensibilities I'd have at most talked to the manager and threatened the store with legal action (not the lowly little grunt at the front door)

I don't care how "violated" you felt by someone touching your arm, the damage you did to this guys life is way beyond what he did to you.

If you where so "threatened" by this brute why didn't you just draw your weapon and kill him on the spot. I imagine you would have been justified.

And by the way, I've been in LE for 20 years, both in the US and in Israel, I know better than to "induce a poorly trained employee to touch us improperly, and then have that employee arrested."

No wonder so many people hate cops, you're willing to turn the full force of the law on someone who just made a minor lapse in judgment, thus probably dooming this idiot to a life worse then what he had before then you jump into your $40,000 SUV and enjoy your little white collar life while he rots in jail and comes out with his already meager employment prospects dwindled down to next to nothing.

Sounds like a Victor Hugo novel to me.

I think someone here needs to learn that Discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[Zundfolge]

Wal-Mart moves in and drives local stores out of business.

Well bub, that's life in a free-market capitalist system...if you want to trade it for a socialist/collectivist system then be prepared to deal with the business end of mine and many other American's rifles.

How many people do these "mom and pop" businesses employ? So it's best that Mom and Pop get to keep their little business at the expense of everyone else in town (both with less jobs and higher prices)?

Many many smaller towns have been revitalized because a WalMart (or other "Superstore") moves in, bringing jobs with it and plus keeping people shopping in their small town. Many of these small towns are dying and the people drive to the nearest big town to shop anyway, Mom and Pop are loosing already.

Do you people also try to run McDonalds out of town to save the Mom and Pop cafes? Or do you attack/boycott the Phillips 66 or Amaco "super gas stations" to save Gomer and Goober's little fillin' station? (think about that when you want gas and coffee at 3 in the morning)

Wal-Mart replaces personal service with a hostile, impersonal, bleak, overcrowded hell hole.

That's a sign of a bad manager. The WalMart I get groceries at has nothing but helpful and friendly employees...and when they get a hostile or impersonal employee they don't last long.

Wal-Mart stops stocking handguns.

I thought you wanted us to support our local businesses? I for one will continue to buy my handguns at a local gun shop (or off gunbroker.com).

Wal-Mart asks why you're buying ammo

They are complying with the law...you don't like it then quit voting for those damn gun grabbing Democrats.

Wal-Mart makes you go through a bag search.

WalMart security is unarmed ... I for one don't wait in line for this crap and if they ask me to stop I ignore them.

Wal-Mart illegally detains people.

See above.

WHAT ON EARTH WILL IT TAKE?! DO THEY HAVE TO START ACTUALLY *KILLING* CUSTOMERS? For the love of MIKE!

Folks, this is the perfect definition of Hyperbole

Unless one of you anti-WalMart folk want to send me a check for $20-30 a week to cover what I save by shopping there over shopping at the "Mom and Pop" grocery store (which by the way is actualy owned by Kroger) I'm gonna keep shopping there.

 

[Mal H]

I'm with Mike Irwin on this issue. I haven't seen the super-unfriendly people at Wal-Mart some others have seen. And they don't search anything when I leave the store out of one of about 5 doors available to exit. The Wal-Marts I go to are in Garrisonville and Culpeper, VA. And I can buy lots and lots of guns and ammo at either one and they don't ask what I need them for. I believe it is strictly a local management problem when things are not right. That can be said of any chain of stores, not just Wal-Mart.

I also frequent Fry's when in Fremont or San Jose. They do attempt to search my bag when leaving. I simply keep walking and smile. They don't detain me or call out the dogs. I really dislike that practice, but they don't get nasty trying to enforce it.

I also think sousana was right to follow up on the assault on him. This reminds me of the MacDonald's spilled-coffee-in-the-lap incident that everyone has heard about. I agree with the lady who sued over the burning coffee and got a huge settlement from MacDonald's. When you know "the rest of the story" on that one, I think you will agree. I feel the same is probably true of sousana's story.

 

[sousana]

MATTHEWM: Sousana is a girl and was physically restrained, I assume not just touched. I'm not letigious, but will back up her decision by assuming that she felt it necessary.

ASSUMPTION is the mother of all ####ups, in this case you assume I'm a girl? How is that? My Israeli passport gives my name as Soloman Ben Sousana, My US Passport gives my Name as John R F. I was born a male many moons ago and I'll die a male many moons from now.

ZUNDFOLGE: If you where so "threatened" by this brute why didn't you just draw your weapon and kill him on the spot. I imagine you would have been justified. This is a statement I would have expected from a new gun owner, not an individual with 20 "years" LE experience.

Had I felt "threatened" I would have taken action. I feel the action I took was justified. So in essence, your telling me in all your years of LE, everyone who's had a "minor" lapse in judgement, you've let off? You seem like an amazingly tolerant individual and we each have our own way of doing things. I would have let this incident go had the employee not taken the attitude he did and get beligerant.

As to your reference about my vehicle, I drive a BMW 750IL sedan and I started life as an E3 in the US Navy and WORKED to my current position. The path to success is open ONLY to those WILLING to work for it.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I find myself wondering what would happen to a customer if, when disatisfied, we grabbed a stock person, manager or cashier and restrained them. The next time a clerk does not respond to you fast enough grab them by the arm or pull them out from behind the counter.
I assure you the police will be called and you will be in deep stuff.

"I will not be wronged, I will not be layed a hand on. I do not do these things to others and I expect the same from them."

 

[AugustWest]

Zundfolge-

IMO, spending locally tends to keep money circulating within the community. Spending it at large chain stores tends to send it out.

There's nothing socialist about supporting entrepreneurs. They are what makes this country great.

And free-market capitalism is based in part on the idea that competition is beneficial. If we end up with one or two companies supplying most of what we buy, that competition disappears.

BTW, I'm not saying that government should have a hand in any of this. Just that I'll spend my money where I choose to. That's my right, just as it is yours.

 

[RBK]

Mike Irwin-
There is a lot of merit in your response, IMHO.

 

[Zundfolge]

ZUNDFOLGE: If you where so "threatened" by this brute why didn't you just draw your weapon and kill him on the spot. I imagine you would have been justified. This is a statement I would have expected from a new gun owner, not an individual with 20 "years" LE experience.

Now I'm confused ... I'm not the one with 20 years LE experience, I thought you were also I thought it was obvious I was trying to illustrate absurdity by being absurd (although upon re-reading my post I see I forgot to add a )

Had I felt "threatened" I would have taken action. I feel the action I took was justified. So in essence, your telling me in all your years of LE, everyone who's had a "minor" lapse in judgment, you've let off? You seem like an amazingly tolerant individual and we each have our own way of doing things. I would have let this incident go had the employee not taken the attitude he did and get belligerent.

1. Please re-read my post, I think you may have missed some of my points (I'm still trying to figure out why you think I'm an LEO).
2. So the story changes and evolves, now the guy went from just "detaining" you to being "belligerent"... still if the situation didn't warrant you drawing your weapon, it obviously wasn't serious enough to send someone to jail. I suppose next time the story gets told the WalMart employee will have tacked you or slammed you up against one of the vending machines in the lobby of the store.

As to your reference about my vehicle, I drive a BMW 750IL sedan and I started life as an E3 in the US Navy and WORKED to my current position. The path to success is open ONLY to those WILLING to work for it.

As a Porsche owner I commend your choice of automobiles (nobody makes 'em better then the Germans)

I'm a Graphic Designer who works for a printing company. I routinely get people submitting work that contains copyrighted material. So in sousana-world I should just call the FBI and report these people for a Title 17 violation thus getting them thrown in jail and all their computers and such seized, but instead I must be in the wrong because I just call these people up and tell them that they can't use the image (or whatever copyrighted material).

I will not dispute that within the "technicality of the law" you where 100% within your rights. But 150 years ago a slave owner would be "within his rights" to beat his Negro do death for "looking at his daughter". The FBI agents who murdered Randy Weaver's wife and son where "technically within the law", the BLM agents who steal cattle and sell it because the owners didn't fill out some paperwork properly are "technically within the law" if the liberals finally get their way and revoke the 2nd amendment the JBTs that kick our doors in to collect our guns will be "technically within the law" but would they be morally and ethically right?

I imagine that if you make a minor mistake when filling out your tax forms and awake one morning to a handful of treasury agents dressed in black kicking your door down, shoving an MP5 in your face and seizing your property, you'll be the first to scream about the injustice of it all, even though you violated a "technicality of the law". Oh, but if YOU are "belligerent" they will just kill you.

What you did may have been legal, but it was morally and ethically equivalent to the examples I just listed.

I agree 100% with everything you did except how you handled the WalMart employee. Certainly WalMart needs to be held accountable for not training it's employees properly. But the damage done to the WalMart employee is 1000 times worse then what you did to WalMart. I imagine they lose more money every day due to spoilage in the produce department than what you took from them, but this WalMart employee will probably be dealing with this for years...frankly I don't think the "punishment" fit the "crime". What bugs me most is that you felt like bragging about how you screwed this guy and you have fellow TFLers patting your back for it.

Thanks for helping to protect society by getting this "hardened criminal" off the streets.

On a side note, I just noticed this...

I spent all the additional credit at Sears, K-mart, Target, Penneys

So you gave money to Rosie's K-mart?

IMO, spending locally tends to keep money circulating within the community. Spending it at large chain stores tends to send it out.

Mom and Pop have 3 employees ... WalMart has 300. As far as contributing to the local economy it would seem to me that 300 people with jobs will contribute more (via spending and taxes) then 3.

There's nothing socialist about supporting entrepreneurs. They are what makes this country great.

WalMart is not an entrepreneur?

This is one of the biggest lies the left gets away with, saying that once an entrepreneur hits a certain level of success that they don't deserve to participate in the free-market any more and have to be regulated.

And free-market capitalism is based in part on the idea that competition is beneficial. If we end up with one or two companies supplying most of what we buy, that competition disappears.

But many people fight to keep WalMart from taking part in the competition by petitioning the local government. Just because WalMart is a better competitor they shouldn't be allowed to compete? That's like saying Tiger Woods plays golf too well so he's not allowed to play professionally any more because it means that Joe Blow with a 16 handicap isn't able to win once in a while.

There's nothing stopping K-mart or Target from coming in to compete with WalMart.

BTW, I'm not saying that government should have a hand in any of this. Just that I'll spend my money where I choose to. That's my right, just as it is yours.

I agree 100% ... let's leave mama gubment out of it.

 

[Byron]

I don't have a lot of patience with Wal-Mart bashing. This outfit started as a nothing store in a nothing town in rural Arkansas and became huge because it delivers the goods. Wal-Mart demonstrates what entrepreneurship is supposed to accomplish: Greater efficiency, a better deal for the consumer, and profits to founders and stockholders.

I'm old enough to remember what shopping was like in small- to medium-sized towns pre-Wal-Mart. It sucked. Lousy selection, inconvenient hours of operation, inflated prices due to no competition, take-it-or-leave-it customer service. If local merchants do somewhat better now, it is because they have to, and they have to because of Wal-Mart and the other large, efficent stores that got that way for a reason.

The little guys stayed little for a reason, too; I have no sympathy for them. If you like the little-guy system, try Germany or Japan. Stores are never open when you can shop, high prices, and you have to spend all day going fifteen different places to finish off your shopping list. No thanks. I'd rather go to Wal-Mart, open almost any time of the day or night, get almost everything you want in one place, and know you aren't being ripped off pricewise.

Let the market speak, and it has. If Wal-Mart gets sloppy and takes its customers for granted, a new competitor will emerge to take advantage. So far, they've stayed lean and mean. They are also excellent community citizens in terms of support for local charities, youth organizations, and the rest. Finally, Wal-Mart provides, besides stock ownership for its employees, good benefits and a kind of career path that is rare in small towns otherwise. Thank God for Wal-Mart.

 

[Bud Helms]

sousana, did you miss this post?

Originally posted by MatthewM:

"Sousana is a girl and was physically restrained, I assume not just touched. I'm not letigious, but will back up her decision by assuming that she felt it necessary."

Maybe that is the assumption you should correct. Since it went uncorrected by you, it was a warranted assumption by MalH.

 

[Mal H]

But sensop, that was the assumptive statement he corrected.

(BTW - I went back and changed the pronoun in my post. But you had to tell the world that I had made the same assumption! )

Sousana - to be honest that assumption is an honest one. We all grew up knowing at least one girl named Sousanna or Susannah, singing "Oh, Susannah" and watching the Gail Storm show of the same name. Well maybe not all of us know who Gail Storm is, but you get the picture.

--------------------------------------

Byron - well said. It's hard to argue with good logic.

 

[Dagny]

Let's look at State Statute (Colorado's)

http://64.78.178.125/cgi-dos/statdspp.exe?N&srch=16-3-201&r=10&s=28637&cr=1
Colorado Revised Statutes
16-3-201 - Arrest by a private person.
A person who is not a peace officer may arrest another person when any crime has been or is being committed by the arrested person in the presence of the person making the arrest.
Source: L. 72: R&RE, p. 199, § 1. C.R.S. 1963: § 39-3-201.

Am. Jur.2d. See 5 Am. Jur.2d, Arrest, § § 56, 57.

C.J.S. See 6A C.J.S., Arrest, § § 12-15.

Law reviews. For comment, "Leake v. Cain: Abrogation of Public Duty Doctrine in Colorado?", see 59 U. Colo. L. Rev. 383 (1988).

Annotator's note. Since § 16-3-201 is similar to repealed § 39-2-20, C.R.S. 1963, relevant cases construing that provision have been included in the annotations to this section.

A private citizen may arrest for any crime committed in his presence. Schiffner v. People, 173 Colo. 123, 476 P.2d 756 (1970).

Officer outside of jurisdiction arrests with authority of private citizen. A peace officer acting outside the territorial limits of his jurisdiction does not have any less authority to arrest than does a person who is a private citizen. People v. Wolf, 635 P.2d 213 (Colo.1981).

When "in presence" requirement met. The "in presence" requirement of this section is met if the arrestor observes acts which are in themselves sufficiently indicative of a crime in the course of commission. People v. Olguin, 187 Colo. 34, 528 P.2d 234 (1974).

F.B.I. agent had authority as private citizen to arrest one escaping from police station in his presence. Schiffner v. People, 173 Colo. 123, 476 P.2d 756 (1970).

Hospital security guards, like any other citizens, have the power to make a citizen's arrest. People v. Olguin, 187 Colo. 34, 528 P.2d 234 (1974).

Applied in People v. Lott, 197 Colo. 78, 589 P.2d 945 (1979).

 

[sousana]

Zundfolge, you got me on the K-mart sale but I found it hard to pass up a Remington 700 BDL in 30-06 for $179 and .44 ammo for $1.79 a box. The next day they had Savage 110 synthetic stock .308 and 30-06 with scope attached for $149. It seems the local K-mart here is clearing out their firearms for some reason. I picked up 4 cases of Remington .357 for $2.67 a box and Winchester .38FMJ for $1.68 a box. I pretty much purchased all the ammo with the exception of .22 ammo and shotgun ammo.

I wasn't bragging about the employee getting arrested, I was just stating what happened. But I do ask this, had I put my hand on an employee and detained them, would they not have called the local PD and had me charged?

There is a big difference in not printing copywritten material and assault/unlawfull detention.

As to your thanking me for protecting society, your quite welcome, I've spent the last 19 years defending the American way of life both abroad and in the States. Without laws, we're just a society at the mercy of the strong.