Would you take the shot?

Depends on the distance. There are techniques taught for the close ones. OPS, Insights, KRtraining have them in advanced classes. I might use them.

This is really off the tactic thrust but I always thought it would make a neat Law and Order episode where a couple in marital strife fell into this situation. The shooter spouse was master level and double tapped quickly into the head of both. Cried at the death of the wife.

The DA team had to prove that at that level of skill it was deliberate.

I thought of this at an IDPA match where a guy squarely shot the hostage with his HK 45 and then opined - Well, I didn't like her anyway.

Also at shotgun class and matches, the hostage shot were you had to match your pattern to the target was sometimes called - Saving the EX-wife. Oops.

Sorry for the morbid diversion.

Springmom - how could this happen? I'll tell you from the Cracker Barrel scenario on the old tactics list. I made it up.

Wife and I were in Cracker Barrel. As I was paying the bill, she was looking at the junk in the store. I see two cops come in and start to talk to the manager - whom I'm near. They are looking for a guy. Having heard this, I get wife and say we are out of here. She say we - I say Cops and we vamoose at deliberate speed. Then a slew of cars arrive and as we watch from our car (no use driving into the melee) - they enter and drag out a screaming dude.

Later, I find out they were chasing him, and he ran into the store. They had to find him admist the crowded store.

It would be very easy for said dude to enter the store - you have no knowledge of him being a bad guy, he sees the cops pull up and grabs you or someone else. Without spidersense, Cooper conditions be damned, you would probably be grabbed.
 
t would be very easy for said dude to enter the store - you have no knowledge of him being a bad guy, he sees the cops pull up and grabs you or someone else. Without spidersense, Cooper conditions be damned, you would probably be grabbed.
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Well....wouldn't HE be in for a nasty little surprise, eh? :)
Sorry, I know it was a serious scenario...I just couldn't help the thought that the 'grabee' might be carrying. Merry Christmas, BG! :rolleyes:
 
"Scenario: BG has your wife and is using her for cover as he backs toward the front door. Classic hostage position: he's got his left arm crooked around your wife's neck dragging her backwards, he's pointing a nondescript handgun at her head with his right hand. You can see about 4 inches of his head craning behind your wife's head. Right shoulder and right leg are exposed but moving unpredictably in response to your wife's struggles. Assume good lighting and no other bystanders. Range to BG is under 10 feet.

Would you take the shot or let him go, for fear of hitting your wife by accident?"

Neither. Letting him go to me means letting him walk out and not follow. Negative.

Take the shot? Not unless I am forced to based on his actions. Hostage situations are negotiated first, good negotiating skills, and a cool head can produce solutions that are acceptbale to both.

Give him a way out, to get away without being shot. You bargain his freedom for your wifes freedom. Poeple in tight places look for ways out. Give him one that all three involved can live with first.

Taking the shot is not the first option for me. It may be the final option but not the first one.

jcims:

Well thought out post IMO. I like your thought process and conclusions.

Robin Brown
 
There is no way a loved one of mine is ever going to be taken to the second crime scene, if I have something to say about it.

If negotiations do not work, I trust my skills over the mercy of a crimminal.
 
I wonder how many of us married guys would take the shot and 'accidentally miss' :D Alright--just kidding!

But seriously, inside of room ranges (10 -15') you'd have him the moment he paused for a tenth of a second. Who here is gonna miss a 4" target inside of 10'? Somehow i'm thinking is most of you folks could probably centerpunch it inside of a 1.5 seconds counting time to draw! The problem with that shot is the possibility of his fingers contracting with a brain injury. One thing typical of head trauma is that the hands tend to make the same kind of fist we all used to when we were 4 and 5 years old--thumb tucks under and all the finger close. Couple that with a b.g. holding a weapon with finger on the trigger and you might fulfill your 'till death do us part' obligation a lot sooner that you wanted. Now what about hitting him in the carpel tunnel or shoulder socket--smaller target, but that might do the trick...
 
Hmmm. There is lots of emotion involved, and your body (as well as the B.G.'s body) will be full of adrenaline. You have half of the B.G.'s face to shoot at, and the target is moving. If you miss, you'll likely hit your wife, and if you don't hit your wife, the B.G. may shoot her.

I've never been in this type of a situation, or received formal training to deal with it. But I have shot at stationary deer, and also at moving deer. The movement significantly increases the difficulty of making an accurate shot, and you typically have a 6 to 8 inch kill zone on a deer. Here, you have only a few inches of non-wife target.

I understand that none of us want to let those two leave the house. But the moving, very small target really worries me. The 'limp wife' :p plan sounds good. The idea of shooting through your wife (her leg, etc.)? Yeah :rolleyes:. Maybe in the movies, but not in the real world.

My solution? I don't have one, and I'll be the first to admit it. :( I don't mean to be trollish, just offering some observations. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
Speed is just a movie. Don't EVER follow advice concerning firearms that comes from a movie, or television. That's make believe.
I doubt if the law would take kindly to me shooting my wife in the leg, even if that were the situation.
I don't know if I'd take the shot or not. I believe I would.
 
I used to think the answer was yes, but a lot of posts here have changed my mind on that one.

From a 10 foot distance with the handgun of my choosing, I could place 3 bullets through his eye before he gets the chance to blink. Aim is of no concern when it comes time to make that very important decision. What bothers me about it was a post a few days ago, pointing out that head shots do not instantly kill like many people (myself included) thought. this would mean that before the shot was fired, the person being held hostage would have to have a plan to take control of the weapon and where it was pointed. could this be done before the bg got a chance to fire? what are the chances of injury? would the hostage freeze up just as you shot, thus allowing the bg to shoot him/her as well?

Assuming the hostage knew their part, and could pull it off sucessfully, I would have to say, absolutly.


BTW: Springmom... the quickest way for a bg to take you hostage, thus spiraling you into this type of situation without giving you time for reactions would be for him/her to hide somewhere like a closet. If you turned your back to exit, the opportunity would arise, and in less than 2 seconds you would find yourself right in the middle of this theoretical situation. It could happen if the bg were hiding behind the door, too... but I assume that, like me, you watch between the hinges of doors when you enter the room. Simply put, all you need is a fast, armed bg and about 2 seconds of having your back turned. No situation could be fully avoided, so its good that you have a plan regardless of your thoughts on weather or not it will happen. I applaud you for that.
 
Already discussed before, but never mentioned who the hostage was before. My take is the guy does not leave with the hostage. I would scream and yell to the BG that he will die if he does not let my wife go, and that if he shot her, I will torture and kill him slowly. I would never back down, and would move in close and if I took the shot it would be at close distance. I think who the hostage is does matter. I would be crazy if it was my wife, BUT I WOULD BE A MADMAN IF IT WAS ONE OF MY KIDS. My concern is its not like target pratice, or a someone in SWAT helping a stranger, emotions will run wild, and accuracy might suffer.
 
My wife and I are both of the opinion that you go nowhere with the BG. Ever. Best to die where someone can find you then die at the hands and place of the BG's choosing. It wouldn't even be up for consideration. Either one of us who might be "the hostage" would be yelling for the other one to shoot!

Simple answer. Yes.
 
Intentionally shooting the leg of a friendly is madness. Clip the femoral artery and she's dead in a minute or five. :( Speed was fun, but *utter fiction*.
 
Years ago, I decided upon the following boundaries. I will fight back against even impossible odds under certain situations:

1) I will not go anywhere at gunpoint. If the bad guy wants me to go somewhere else, it's because he wants to do something to me there that he is unwilling to do to me right here, right now. Therefore, right here, right now is the best chance to fight back I will ever have.

2) I will not allow myself to be tied up. If the bad guy wants to tie me up, it is because he wants to do things to me that he would be unable to do if I were not tied up. Therefore, I will resist before I become helpless.

3) I will not kneel. No one is going to execute me. If I die, I'll die fighting.

4) If someone tries to take one of my children, I will fight even at the risk of my child being killed by the bad guy in the resultant firefight. I plan this not because I am certain I would be successful in fighting back, but because I would not be able to live with myself if I simply "allowed" my child to be taken, brutalized and tortured, and his body perhaps never found. I'd rather watch him die in front of me. (Yes, that's harsh. But given only those two options, which would you choose?)

The specific scenario that opened this thread deals with point #4 on my list. If the kidnappee were my husband instead of my child (unlikely but possible), the odds for success improve greatly because my husband knows I would shoot ... so he knows to duck.

pax
 
The guy across the back yard is getting over a AK round to the femor bone and it aint pretty it is now 1 inch shorter, they are working on microbreaking the bone and stretching it on a weekly basis to make it the same length. His wife gave me all his guns to take away the easy way out from the pain, NO way i am going to do that on a whim to a loved one.

Would I take the shot? yeah I would maybe not in the doorway but i would take the shot when I got it, more likely than using a pistol i would have the AR and then it is over right there.

Discuss this with your family, make a plan on what you do. for us the word "Honey" means do something, turn, drop, scream, but make a move. We also have a longer porch where making that move dragging a dead weight would be difficult. teach your family you do not go with just go limp. force them to try and drag you, then react.

I know a guy who practises this shot a lot and he is a cop. he tacks paper plates to the back side of targets or if out side to the back side of a tree. figures that approximates the view he would get of the BG poking his head around.
I just practice popping squirrels off the back side of trees.
 
What bothers me about it was a post a few days ago, pointing out that head shots do not instantly kill like many people (myself included) thought. this would mean that before the shot was fired, the person being held hostage would have to have a plan to take control of the weapon and where it was pointed. could this be done before the bg got a chance to fire? what are the chances of injury? would the hostage freeze up just as you shot, thus allowing the bg to shoot him/her as well?
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You have to take the credentials of those posting such nonsense with a bucket load of salt! In the real world, rather than the armchair one, professionals know that putting two in the head of a man holding a gun to someone's head is the instant way to put them down - dead before they hit the ground in many instances.

If you read any of the post-action reports of the Embassy siege in London in 1980, the coroners report that those terrorists shot in the head by the Counter Terrorist Team were killed instantly - and that was the report from the inquest afterward. Those men were shot with 9mm Ball from MP5 or Browning Hi Power - not hydrashock, or JHP, or any other current 'essential' defensive round.

I trust my operational experience and what I have seen rather than what is speculated here.
 
Mike,

They may be dead before they hit the ground. You may have a lot of real world experience.

One can still react to being shot in the head and pull the trigger while the lights go out, not so much voluntarily but involuntarily.

Every counter sniper using rifles is trained where the head shot needs to be taken if possible to give them the best chance this does not happen. If the guys finger is on the trigger, and the gun is at the head, the chance of the BG still killing the hostage is good.

Having been trained in counter sniper, it is standard procedure to get into that sweet spot 1/2" below the ear at the based of the skull if possible. Thats is the highest percentage shot the lights go out without autonomic reflex which can be problematic.

There are many reasons not to take the shot right away but hydostatic shot from a pistol is certainly less than a rifle round.

Robin Brown
 
Having been trained in counter sniper, it is standard procedure to get into that sweet spot 1/2" below the ear at the based of the skull if possible. Thats is the highest percentage shot the lights go out without autonomic reflex which can be problematic.
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yep. Severing the spinal cord is the only way to ensure complete paralysis, if not instant death; which is the point of the 'sweet spot'.
Even 'two-to-the-head' will still often result in involuntary muscle contractions for several minutes after death...if you've got true operational experience then you know this. So discharge of the BG's weapon, while not probable, is still possible. And let's face it - is anyone here willing to risk it?

And as for the hostage freezing up...well that's their responsibility, now isn't it? Play like you practice, practice like you play.
 
Mike

You have to take the credentials of those posting such nonsense with a bucket load of salt! In the real world, rather than the armchair one, professionals know that putting two in the head of a man holding a gun to someone's head is the instant way to put them down - dead before they hit the ground in many instances.
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Um, that bucket of salt may have been mine :p :D . I've seen no less than eight head shots by handguns of various calibers, either by suicide or homicide, and none of them died instantly.... or pleasantly.

The most recent involved a 22 yr. old man "jokingly" playing Russian Roulette in front of friends with a J-frame Smith and Federal .38+P HP's. A 1.5" X 2.3" piece of his skull was lying 14 inches away, along with a fair amount of brain matter. I arrived on scene approx. 5 minutes after the shooting was reported, and he was breathing, but aspirating. It took him another 20 minutes to die.

Were they disabled by the shot? Hell yes, but if there is such a thing as an instant kill with a handgun, it'd be serendipity. Now a rifle? Whole different ball game.
 
Even 'two-to-the-head' will still often result in involuntary muscle contractions for several minutes after death...if you've got true operational experience then you know this.
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Many hunters can attest to this. I know I'm an armchair quarterback here but I've taken headshots on animals and noticed this. Also, head trauma victims I've seen have both hands curled into a fist with thumbs tucked in--that could set off a weapon in the perp's hand...further, if you want to stop vital functions immediately the only way is the brain stem--this controls the involuntary reactions of breathing and heart rate. Yes a head wound victim could asparate air for minutes afterward. You gotta sever the controling nerves. Better, you tell the b.g. something along the lines of 'I won't miss, let her go and I let you go...' and hope if he takes the door prize of freedom--why he actually might if he's really using her to get out of the situation.
 
Yes, a single shot to the brain stem is the preferred method.
Nope, you're not gonna do it in this situation.
Nope, you're not gonna do it with a handgun unless it's execution style.

If you had a rifle and a stable platform you could do it. But then you've taken yourself out beyond the scope of this scenario, eh? :cool:

I can't say right now in this moment whether I'd take the shot or not. My focus is on retrieving my wife, not killing the BG....may be the same thing, may not be. I'd try my damnest not to let them leave, even if I had to put one in her calf or shoulder, because if she leaves it will be the last time I see her. Problem is, if you shoot, he's gonna pull the trigger....he'll spook, and she'll become a red lingering mist.
If he does leave with her....well....ever seen Man on Fire ?
 
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