would you risk your life for someone else's property?

Frank,

And so anyone ... who says anything approaching, "No worries, we have an immunity law." is deluding himself. It's not that simple ... .

Correct. An immunity provision is better than no immunity provision, but in most cases an immunity provision and a bus token will get you a bus ride.

....Was Zimmerman reimbursed for his defense expenses?....
No, Florida law does not provide for that.

I'm operating from memory, but I think WA does provide for this. But, I have the impression that most judges believe most attorneys overcharge their clients. As such, I doubt one would be fully reimbursed for one's criminal defense expenses.

....Has the law kept Trayvon's family from filing a civil suit against him?...
Most likely the law has nothing to do with it. Most likely the primary reason Zimmerman hasn't been sued is because he has no money.

I recall the Martin family legal team threatening a suit and Zimmerman's attorney pointing to the law, but you make a good point in that Zimmerman is obviously not a deep pocket. On the other hand, I think progressives would have eagerly funded a technically viable (as opposed to financially viable) civil suit, if only to prove Zimmerman virtually guilty by finding him liable for a wrongful death, ala OJ. FL's civil immunity may have spared Zimmerman more time in a courtroom. Of course, the Martin lawyers may have cringed at the idea of seeing their star witness, Dee Dee, back on the stand.
 
Limnophile said:
...I think WA does provide for this. But, I have the impression that most judges believe most attorneys overcharge their clients. As such, I doubt one would be fully reimbursed for one's criminal defense expenses....
Yes Washington State law does, and a successful defendant can certainly expect some dispute over the final attorney fee award. On the other hand, Gail Gerlach's lawyers received $221,574 of the close to $300,000 requested.

It's also a better idea to do some research rather than relying on one's "impressions."

Limnophile said:
...On the other hand, I think progressives would have eagerly funded a technically viable (as opposed to financially viable) civil suit, if only to prove Zimmerman virtually guilty by finding him liable for a wrongful death, ala OJ....
You think? On what basis? Do you have any evidence, or is it just basically a guess?

In the OJ case, it actually was conceivable that at least some of a significant judgment could be collectible, given his celebrity and past earning record.
 
Hear intruder-Draw gun- call police- Shout "Hey I've called the police, leave now!" and retreat to safety.

Seems like alot of people forget they can use their voice. Not that it's a substitute for being armed, but you can question and yell at someone to find out their intentions or what's really going on while still being prepared for a conflict. Maybe the "intruder" is the owners grandchild or someone else who had a key to the house. You never know, so it's best to find out as much information as possible while you can do so from relative safety.
 
... Zimmerman is obviously not a deep pocket.
There's almost always the potential for a deep pocket when a homeowner kills someone on his property because of homeowner's insurance coverage. That makes any shooting on the defender's property very different from the Zimmerman shooting.

Homeowner's coverage is one reason why civil cases attempt to show that the shooting was accidental. If they can manage that then the insurance company may be liable.
Nothing says i have to huddle in the dark house while some dirtbag steals my truck. Im legally able to confront and stop that theft. If the badguy decides to attack me...well, im going to defend myself.
To be perfectly accurate, you're going to TRY to defend yourself. Perhaps you will be successful, perhaps you won't.

There's no guarantee that the outcome of the armed encounter will be in your favor. Even if you stop the theft and disable the attacker, that doesn't guarantee that you will be uninjured or even that you will survive. And even if you come out of it physically unscathed, there's no guarantee that you won't end up losing far more than the cost of your truck defending yourself in criminal and civil court--nor is there any guarantee that you will win either case.

The movie mentality (the good guy wins the shootout and the credits roll) is absolutely not a good model for the real world. The real world has a tendency to be a lot more stingy with happy endings.
 
JohnKSa said:
Sharkbite said:
Nothing says i have to huddle in the dark house while some dirtbag steals my truck. Im legally able to confront and stop that theft. If the badguy decides to attack me...well, im going to defend myself.
....There's no guarantee that the outcome of the armed encounter will be in your favor. Even if you stop the theft and disable the attacker, that doesn't guarantee that you will be uninjured or even that you will survive. And even if you come out of it physically unscathed, there's no guarantee that you won't end up losing far more than the cost of your truck defending yourself in criminal and civil court--nor is there any guarantee that you will win either case.

The movie mentality (the good guy wins the shootout and the credits roll) is absolutely not a good model for the real world. The real world has a tendency to be a lot more stingy with happy endings.
And when you go out to a confrontation you increase your likelihood of a bad outcome. Among other things, you might well find yourself at a tactical disadvantage. Do you really know how many bad guys there are? There might well be a lookout you haven't spotted.

And you could wind up as another homeowner shot by police in the mistaken belief that you were the crook.
 
Nobody believes possessions are worth killing or dying for, but how naive one must be to assume that these are all harmless people who only have designs on our "stuff", and will be appeased if we allow them to take it.

The OP was about house sitting, and any person who would burglarize an occupied home is the most dangerous type of cirminal, who would likely have no qualms about hurting or killing someone.

Your state may vary, but most recognize the same rights to protect yourself in your place of lawful residence, permanent or temporary, whether it be your home, your neighbor's home, or a Motel 6. In most places, you are not obligated to determine whether the thief who just entered the room where you were just sleeping is only there to take stuff or means to do worse. In most places you are not obligated to flee and let him have it. Check your state's laws.

I would and have confronted people, not in my home, trying to steal my stuff even though I was in no immediate danger. The thief who gets away with it, only increases his appetite for theft. Confrontation also decreases the likelihood he will return.

If I were house sitting, I would first make it obvious someone is there before I go to bed, and if someone entered an obviously occupied home at night, I would treat the situation the same as if it were my own home. Anyone who would do hot burglaries, is a threat to the safety of every potential future victim, and WILL hurt or kill someone eventually. It is those people I think about, and not the homeowner's "stuff".

Funny how we all expect the police to protect our "stuff" while refusing to help ourselves.
 
Posted by TimSr:
I would and have confronted people, not in my home, trying to steal my stuff even though I was in no immediate danger.
It is far more prudent to stay out of danger, in your home or out.

Not in your home? That's extremely dangerous.

The thief who gets away with it, only increases his appetite for theft. Confrontation also decreases the likelihood he will return.
That is not a lawful justification for using force.

If I were house sitting, I would first make it obvious someone is there before I go to bed, and if someone entered an obviously occupied home at night, I would treat the situation the same as if it were my own home.
So would I.

Anyone who would do hot burglaries, is a threat to the safety of every potential future victim, and WILL hurt or kill someone eventually.
That should not influence your course of action at all, and it would not help you in defense of justification. Worry about your own safety.
 
Material things are replaceable. Your life is not, nor are the lives of any other innocents, nor indeed is the life of even a bad actor, though some may not value it.

That sorta depends on the property of interest, doesn't it? I mean if someone's stealing your mega-dollar turbo Porsche convertible, it's ONE thing. But what if they're stealing your Oxygen concentrating machine, or in-home dialysis unit (I suspect that the latter might cost what the aforementioned Porsche might), or other device on which you might depend daily for your mere survival?

What if they steal someone's benzodiazepine-derivative prescription, on which they depend to fend off potentially fatal (or at least profoundly harmful) grand mal seizures, merely to get high?

Or what does the wheelchair-bound owner of a specially equipped van, and who lives 20 miles from the nearest town, do about some low-life who decides to boost his vehicle? All that special equipment parts out at pretty high prices, even in a chop shop.

Where does one draw the line on when the deprivation of one's property can reasonably be construed as a threat to their personal safety?
 
I would have to say that I would.

I have been the victim of theft.

Some say material things are replaceable.

They are if you have the money to replace them.

A lot of folks work hard for their possessions and probably are on a snug budget. There are not many Rockefellers in my neighborhood and most all are either retired or working class.

Let's say you have a $50,000 SUV in the driveway that is 4 years old.

How much do you think the insurance company will give you for it?

Certainly not the replacement value.

I don't live in Washington and do not intend to, but protection of life and property is allowed in my state.

I had a cousin that was murdered to get his money. He was old, and his caretakers were the guilty parties (3 brothers in their 50s). The case has not been to trial as yet. My cousin is gone, the brothers are still living free to victimize another poor soul.
 
I think I'm raising a valid issue, Mr. Eatman, not "drifting away from the OP". In Texas, the law says that one may use lethal force to defend property. HOWEVER, there's often a big difference between what the law says and of what a jury will convict someone.

If the jury has such latitudes, then in that same gray area may lie the victim's perceived potential harm involved in not discouraging the would-be perpetrators from their intended aggression. I think the phrase "it goes to 'state of mind'" is what an attorney might say.

If fear for one's life is an affirmative defense, and fear for one's property is a "SEMI-affirmative" defense, then almost certainly the latter must be viewed in terms of what's likely to happen if NO defensive action is undertaken.
 
If I were house sitting, I would first make it obvious someone is there before I go to bed, and if someone entered an obviously occupied home at night, I would treat the situation the same as if it were my own home.
This is all very reasonable and makes perfect sense.
Anyone who would do hot burglaries, is a threat to the safety of every potential future victim, and WILL hurt or kill someone eventually. It is those people I think about, and not the homeowner's "stuff".
The laws in many places acknowledge that persons who commit "hot burglaries" are often a deadly threat and give the homeowner/defender more leeway than would be afforded in a crime that is exclusively about property. However, it's important not to get confused about the difference between self-defense and dispensing justice/preemptive punishment. It's perfectly reasonable to consider the immediate potential threat to you in your response to an attacker but it's questionable, at best, to take action based on what you think the attacker might do in the future if you don't confront him/her. The law gives a defender absolutely zero right/dispensation to base his/her response on what sort of criminal career the defender assumes that the attacker will engage in in the future if not confronted.
Nobody believes possessions are worth killing or dying for, but how naive one must be to assume that these are all harmless people who only have designs on our "stuff", and will be appeased if we allow them to take it.
There's a good bit of wiggle room between not going out and accosting a person in a situation where the outcome has a significant potential to be negative and allowing someone to take your stuff without taking any action at all.

Of course you should call the authorities immediately.

If you have a car made in the last decade or so, it probably has a key fob with a panic alarm on it. Push the button Max!

And, if you don't mind risking death/bankruptcy/incarceration then by all means rush to confront them with your gun and see how the scenario plays out. What's life without a little risk, right? Especially if the risk is over something totally irreplaceable, like an insured automobile, right? :D
Funny how we all expect the police to protect our "stuff" while refusing to help ourselves.
Property protection needs to be primarily pre-emptive/preventive. Once the property crime is underway, there's very little that can be done without significant risk to one's personal wellbeing, future freedom, and financial health. All of which are generally more important/valuable than the loss incurred by losing the property in question.

Funny how so many people who are so rabid about protecting their "stuff" once there's a criminal trying to take it are so laid back about it the rest of the time. ;)
How much do you think the insurance company will give you for it?
How much do you think getting shot will cost you if you live? How much will retaining a lawyer cost you? How much will a criminal and/or civil defense cost you? If you want to play it by the numbers, you should look at all the possibilities, not just the best possible outcome.
In Texas, the law says that one may use lethal force to defend property.
It is true that in limited circumstances, it is legal to use lethal force to defend property if other avenues are unavailable or would expose the "defender" to risk of death. If the law is examined, many of the situations where lethal force is allowed are actually shaded more towards self-defense than property defense.

It is misleading to make the simple statement that Texas law allows lethal force to defend property without any further amplification--it's a lot more complicated than that. A careful read of those laws is eye-opening.

The laws are as much about about defending life as about defending property. The list of qualifying crimes includes, for example, aggravated robbery and arson, both of which offer significant opportunity for injury or death to innocents. Furthermore, the law makes it clear that deadly force is only authorized when using any other means to prevent the property damage/loss or to recover the property would expose the defender to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

In most cases when this section of law could be used to justify deadly force, deadly force would likely also be justified under the self-defense section of the Penal Code. Even Texas law, unusual as it is, is much more restrictive than people typically believe.
 
It is misleading to make the simple statement that Texas law allows lethal force to defend property without any further amplification--

Then don't print PART of what I said, without including THE REST of what I said:

In Texas, the law says that one may use lethal force to defend property. HOWEVER, there's often a big difference between what the law says and of what a jury will convict someone.

...and I suspect you meant "without any further qualification"? My second sentence of the paragraph was written with precisely that mission in mind. Sorry if the qualification was unclear.

I'm not an attorney, and I haven't read those statutes in a number of years (hence my 2nd, qualifying sentence), so I'll defer to your description of them. I also observe that many (not all, nor even a majority, but many) court cases I have followed concerning this issue rather closely, ended in a result that I didn't really expect. Litigation is not a mathematically precise nor predictable process. No process so heavily predicated on the judgments of 6 or 12 peers (a term which I use advisedly) can be. But then, I think I already alluded to that.
 
Kosh75287 said:
...I'm not an attorney, and I haven't read those statutes in a number of years...
In that case it would be best to refrain from commenting. Why should we be wasting time and bandwidth discussing the subject when we can't even be sure your information is accurate?
 
Last edited:
I believe security guard training is a prime example of this topic.

I believe most guards, including those who are armed are instructed to observe the situation and notify 911.

This is the safest and most logical course of action assuming that your life is not at risk.

I can guarantee you that the police are not concerned one bit about your possessions. They are concerned about whether or not the criminal is putting lives in danger and capturing the individual.

In the city I live in the police stopped a vehicle which was reported stealing possessions in the neighborhood. It was a station wagon loaded to the brim with electronics, valuables, etc. As soon as the officer approached the vehicle, the subject sped off. The police did not pursue since he had no warrants or committed a crime in front of the police. They cited the high traffic density as justification for not putting motorists lives in danger.
 
Depends on the circumstances. If it's a good neighborhood with mostly upper income homes--then chances are good the local police keep a good eye out cause that's the tax-payer and political base. I wouldn't risk anything other than getting the call out and getting myself out.

If it's a lower income area with strong organized gangs populated with "nothing to lose" toughs I think it's very reasonably to assume they constitute a deadly threat--especially if they tend to operate in numbers. Police response time--unless a call of use of deadly force is involved--may be longer to lower income areas. My opinion is gangs are bringing a potential fight to you--prepare accordingly.
 
I think the reality of the situation is that, if you saw someone breaking into your truck in the driveway, most guys i know would go outside and yell for them to stop.

If they ran away (likely outcome), the event is over. If they started to close with me and were armed with a screwdriver or some other weapon, then i would defend myself. I would not be shooting to stop a theft, i would be shooting to defend my life in a place i was lawfully at...doing something i was lawfully entitled to do.

Nothing says i have to huddle in the dark house while some dirtbag steals my truck. Im legally able to confront and stop that theft. If the badguy decides to attack me...well, im going to defend myself.

Exactly. I don't confront the thief with a gun. I confront the thief as the property owner. The gun is on me for the same reason it's always on me.

Thieves are like stray cats. If you keep feeding them, they keep coming back.
 
I'm not an attorney, and I haven't read those statutes in a number of years (hence my 2nd, qualifying sentence), so I'll defer to your description of them. I also observe that many (not all, nor even a majority, but many) court cases I have followed concerning this issue rather closely, ended in a result that I didn't really expect. Litigation is not a mathematically precise nor predictable process. No process so heavily predicated on the judgments of 6 or 12 peers (a term which I use advisedly) can be. But then, I think I already alluded to that.

This is noteworthy in that the general attitudes of jurors vary greatly, and there are certain regional tendancies. I've also seen a great change over the years where criminals who were injured or killed "on the job" used to be viewed more as victims, whereas now the tend to be viewed more as assuming the "hazards of the job" even in cases where the same laws are applied. Some regios of the country seem to be more inclined than others.
 
Posted by TimSr:
I don't confront the thief with a gun. I confront the thief as the property owner. The gun is on me for the same reason it's always on me.
We hear that one from time to time time.

There have been at least a few cases around the country in which a person did not prevail in his defense of justification after a shooting because it was held that his actions in heading out to engage in the confrontation had precipitated the use of force incidents.

I cannot put my electronic hands on them right now.

"The thief? How could one know that the guy's driver did not have a gun to train on the"property owner" in case something like that were to develop.

Thieves are like stray cats. If you keep feeding them, they keep coming back.

That is completely irrelevant to any basis of justification for the use of deadly force.

And I most certainly would not want any statement along those lines read to a jury after I had shot someone.
 
Back
Top