Would You Have Acted Differently?
- Thread starter trex1310
- Start date
youngunz4life
New member
in this case one shot maybe is better, but is there a time when you just shoot multiple times for your own safety? as an example, we all know every situation is different: if my home was being invaded in the middle of the night while my family was home, I would probably shoot multiple shots @ the BG right off the bat.
youngunz4life, the accepted response is to shoot until the threat ceases. Shooting to kill, shooting to prevent potential future crime, and shooting to avoid prison over-crowding are not accepted reasons for an affirmative SD defense.
In the OP's case, the BG dropped at the first round, and ceased all threatening behavior. Shooting any more rounds at that point would, at best, have muddied the legal waters.
Now, if he'd trained to double-tap and re-assess, as many military and LEO types have been trained (though that paradigm has been shifting in recent years), and if he'd reflexively fired a double-tap but then ceased fire, he'd probably have been ok.
A lot depends on the DA; a lot depends on local politics and culture.
There have also been documented cases where very well-trained LEO's (SWAT firearms instructors, for instance) have emptied their weapons without realizing it, in the heat of the moment thinking they'd only fired five or six rounds.
I'm not saying to empty your weapon; I am saying that there are times when people may fire more than the minimum required without conscious decision to do so, because of fear or adrenaline. This can definitely complicate a legal defense.
Massad Ayoob has a lot of material on this kind of thing.
But my previous point was that laying a framework of "I advocate shooting until the BG can't overcrowd the prison or repeat the offense against somebody else" is unwise.
In the OP's case, the BG dropped at the first round, and ceased all threatening behavior. Shooting any more rounds at that point would, at best, have muddied the legal waters.
Now, if he'd trained to double-tap and re-assess, as many military and LEO types have been trained (though that paradigm has been shifting in recent years), and if he'd reflexively fired a double-tap but then ceased fire, he'd probably have been ok.
A lot depends on the DA; a lot depends on local politics and culture.
There have also been documented cases where very well-trained LEO's (SWAT firearms instructors, for instance) have emptied their weapons without realizing it, in the heat of the moment thinking they'd only fired five or six rounds.
I'm not saying to empty your weapon; I am saying that there are times when people may fire more than the minimum required without conscious decision to do so, because of fear or adrenaline. This can definitely complicate a legal defense.
Massad Ayoob has a lot of material on this kind of thing.
But my previous point was that laying a framework of "I advocate shooting until the BG can't overcrowd the prison or repeat the offense against somebody else" is unwise.
youngunz4life
New member
Ok thanks MLeake, I was also thinking about the double tap. I have heard also about the weapon emptying - that can cause serious issues for civilians.
I wish I had the article from the email my uncle sent me last year. This was a real interview with a woman reporter speaking either with the police chief, sheriff, or the high ranking public speaker of the sheriff's dept(I can't remember which one).
She pointed out the numerous, numerous amounts of ammo shot into the vehicle and BG upon his death and asked why this amount of shots were fired. He then responded that was the # shot because his men were out of ammo - gotta love the guy's honesty.
I wish I had the article from the email my uncle sent me last year. This was a real interview with a woman reporter speaking either with the police chief, sheriff, or the high ranking public speaker of the sheriff's dept(I can't remember which one).
She pointed out the numerous, numerous amounts of ammo shot into the vehicle and BG upon his death and asked why this amount of shots were fired. He then responded that was the # shot because his men were out of ammo - gotta love the guy's honesty.
younggunz4life, that was older than last year; I believe it was Sheriff Grady Judd, in Polk County, FL.
An alleged (in articles at the time) Miami drug posse hit-man named Angilo Freeland got pulled over by, and shot, a Polk County deputy, who had no idea of whom (and what) he'd stopped for a traffic violation. Deputy survived, and backup arrived. K-9 team. K-9 team pursued the suspect into the woods, where the suspect ambushed them. Shot the dog, shot the dog-handler seven times, then took the dog-handler's gun and executed him with it via a bullet behind the ear.
Polk County SWAT found the shooter the next day. When the shooter refused to surrender, he was engaged. Something like 120 rounds fired, with 68 hits IIRC.
Murdered K-9 handler was Deputy Matt Williams; his dog was named Diogi (pronounced DeeOhGee, the handler's joke for his DOG). Wounded officer was shot in the leg in the initial confrontation, but survived.
Link to a Snopes article on this (note Snopes makes no mention of the drug-gang connections alleged in Florida papers at the time): http://www.snopes.com/crime/cops/judd.asp
An alleged (in articles at the time) Miami drug posse hit-man named Angilo Freeland got pulled over by, and shot, a Polk County deputy, who had no idea of whom (and what) he'd stopped for a traffic violation. Deputy survived, and backup arrived. K-9 team. K-9 team pursued the suspect into the woods, where the suspect ambushed them. Shot the dog, shot the dog-handler seven times, then took the dog-handler's gun and executed him with it via a bullet behind the ear.
Polk County SWAT found the shooter the next day. When the shooter refused to surrender, he was engaged. Something like 120 rounds fired, with 68 hits IIRC.
Murdered K-9 handler was Deputy Matt Williams; his dog was named Diogi (pronounced DeeOhGee, the handler's joke for his DOG). Wounded officer was shot in the leg in the initial confrontation, but survived.
Link to a Snopes article on this (note Snopes makes no mention of the drug-gang connections alleged in Florida papers at the time): http://www.snopes.com/crime/cops/judd.asp
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youngunz4life
New member
thanks. I had been wondering about that for a while.
trex1310 said:
It's a tough call. I honestly don't know if I would have done the same or different. And if I would have done it differently, I sure couldn't say how.
But what you did worked and you took a scumbag out of circulation for a couple of years. I'd say that was well done.
stephen426
New member
Sounds like you did the right thing to me. I'm glad that things worked out for you. I might not have gotten out of the car though. My windows are tinted and even a full powered hit should not collapse the window immediately. I would have had my gun out as soon as I saw a guy approaching with a pipe. I probably would have pointed it right at him. If the guy took at swing at my window, I would have pull the trigger.
One last bit of arm chair quarterbacking... If I noticed someone was following me closely or driving aggressively behind me, I would not stop in a secluded area. I would either pull into a crowded area, or even in front of a police station. Either that or I would have left the guy in my dust.
One last bit of arm chair quarterbacking... If I noticed someone was following me closely or driving aggressively behind me, I would not stop in a secluded area. I would either pull into a crowded area, or even in front of a police station. Either that or I would have left the guy in my dust.
If I noticed a vehicle following very close behind me and was sure he was following me, I'd call 911 and drive to the nearest city, county, or state LEO station. Hopefully a welcome crew would be there to welcome the ex-con. I would not want to go through the situation of having shot someone.
Occam's Razor
Inactive
It's very simple - Well Done.
FrontSight
New member
Good situational awareness. Very wise to get out of your truck. Good shoot. Good cease fire. Very good job!!
100% arm chair quarterbacking with 20/20 hindsight and no adrenaline: Would have been better to keep driving, call 911 and go to police station. Who knows what defenseless victim he might have murdered instead that day if you did, though?!
More a.c.q.b: Once out of your truck, wise to step back and around to put the truck between you and him if possible. I probably would have held the gun up and close to my chest to show him what was going to happen if he didn't stop.
100% arm chair quarterbacking with 20/20 hindsight and no adrenaline: Would have been better to keep driving, call 911 and go to police station. Who knows what defenseless victim he might have murdered instead that day if you did, though?!
More a.c.q.b: Once out of your truck, wise to step back and around to put the truck between you and him if possible. I probably would have held the gun up and close to my chest to show him what was going to happen if he didn't stop.
I would have been a bit more suspicious since you stated he was following quite close. I am glad that you were able to preserve your life and that all went well with the shoot, but was there not an opportunity to go one more time around the building letting him know you knew he was following? Just a thought that deals with situational awareness, another key component to self defense situations. In such, if he continued to follow, I would have kept driving and looking for an LEO first while on the phone at the same time to 911.
Once again, not trying to second guess, but I did get the sense you were asking for other opinions.
Glad you are OK and the perp was convicted. However, once you were blocked in with direct evidence of a confrontation, I can't think of anything else to do. Perhaps I would have shown the weapon once he threatened you with a pipe and demanded your wallet. If he ran, so be it, but in the end, probably a better outcome the way it went down.
God bless,
Once again, not trying to second guess, but I did get the sense you were asking for other opinions.
Glad you are OK and the perp was convicted. However, once you were blocked in with direct evidence of a confrontation, I can't think of anything else to do. Perhaps I would have shown the weapon once he threatened you with a pipe and demanded your wallet. If he ran, so be it, but in the end, probably a better outcome the way it went down.
God bless,
I like everything you did; I wouldn't want to be trapped in my vehicle no matter what weapon the BG was holding ... I might have displayed the gun earlier, on the theory that he might have backed off and I would have avoided the need to shoot him ... however, at least here in Texas, everything you did was completely legal, thanks to the Castle Doctrine laws being passed in many states now ... glad you were cleared, glad he lived, amazed that he only got two years ...
If I kept going every time a car followed me close into a parking lot, I'd never get anywhere. I can kinda agree with what others advised about staying in the vehicle, when the guy blocked you in. But that is a double edged sword, because your movement is limited, and you only have limited protection in the vehicle.
The only thing I can find that I would have done differently is I would have had the gun pointed at him as soon as I saw the pipe. Not in hopes that he would get scared and run, but because I might need to shoot him. 10-12 feet doesn't leave much reaction time. And it's really 7-9 feet because he had a 3' pipe. Scary. I'm glad you made it through unscathed.
I probably would have at least double tapped. I don;t think I would have had the presence of mind to shoot just once.
I wouldn't get too fancy about what to say in such an encounter. "Drop the weapon" is enough. It prompts witnesses to look for a weapon, so they'll perceive the same threat you perceive. And they can't contradict your version of the story, because you're not being specific about the type of weapon you saw, or thought you saw. I wouldn't call out "armed citizen" or "police", as some people are suggesting.
The only thing I can find that I would have done differently is I would have had the gun pointed at him as soon as I saw the pipe. Not in hopes that he would get scared and run, but because I might need to shoot him. 10-12 feet doesn't leave much reaction time. And it's really 7-9 feet because he had a 3' pipe. Scary. I'm glad you made it through unscathed.
I probably would have at least double tapped. I don;t think I would have had the presence of mind to shoot just once.
I wouldn't get too fancy about what to say in such an encounter. "Drop the weapon" is enough. It prompts witnesses to look for a weapon, so they'll perceive the same threat you perceive. And they can't contradict your version of the story, because you're not being specific about the type of weapon you saw, or thought you saw. I wouldn't call out "armed citizen" or "police", as some people are suggesting.
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TylerD45ACP
New member
No Kidding, I probably would have fired twice even three times. If I feel my life is in danger I will discharge the weapon. Sounds like the situation called for it so it would be intent on stopping him. Id shoot COM twice. Sounds like you handled the situation excellently though. You gave him the command he ignored and you fired, one shot stop (Ranger's JHP 
+ 45) and gained control of the situation. Good job in getting a BG back in prison and keeping a cool head.
+ 45) and gained control of the situation. Good job in getting a BG back in prison and keeping a cool head.SurplusShooter
New member
No I would have acted in the same fashion as you.
40caljustice
New member
A bail bondsman I run around with from time to time is also a firearms instructor / tactical training instructor told me to yell out "back up and do not threaten me!" Witnesses can identify you as a victim and also its a command that provides evidence that you tried not to instigate or aggravate the situation. It helps with legal process after the fact. Never inform them you are armed and never draw your weapon until all other options are out the window.
This is easier said than done. Who knows what will happen in that situation. Hopefully we never have to find out.
I apologize if this is just an echo of some other post already posted. I just skimmed through the thread.
This is easier said than done. Who knows what will happen in that situation. Hopefully we never have to find out.
I apologize if this is just an echo of some other post already posted. I just skimmed through the thread.