Would you get involved PART 2 - Unedited!

That's the only reason why im slightly afriad to pack heat (carry)-
a guy sucker punches you, you are unconcious, he finds and grabs your gun, good bye. guess u gotta be real cautious when carrying.
if i was a bystander and i was carrying and is saw it, i dont think i would of shot the BG. I don't think the BG could kill the victim unarmed easily. I would have put the magazine in my pocket, rack the slide, put the live round in the chamber in my pocket, and if it was a 1911 or a revolver, melee the BG with it :D
 
This was pointed out in the other thread. It was a sucker punch yet it really wasn't since there should have been warning flags.

What I notice about a lot of victims of the "sucker punch" is that they do that moronic posturing where they have hands down and stick their chest out against a threat. During this posture that screams out "punch me in the head i'm defenseless" they get hit.

The victim in this case did the same thing. As for the all the bystanders it wasn't like the punch came out of nowhere it seems they had almost a full minute from the first warning signs to the punch that there could be danger.
 
Howdy,
I just watched the video again and again. How many oppurtunities did the victim have to leave before something really bad happen? Better yet as the incident occurred how many people made an attempt to leave ? Common sense says if you are in a bad situation try to get out of it but no one left. Perhaps its the same reason people rubber neck to see an auto accident. Maybe morbid curiosity had something to do with it.
I must admit that after I saw the first edited version of the clip I had a lot more sympathy for the victim. After seeing the unedited version however I find it a lot harder to have sympathy for the victim. The victim made no attempt to avoid or difuse the situation. The victim actually thew gas on what was already past a volitile situation by arguing with GM. No one deseres a beat-down like that, but after seeing the whole video clip once again how many people would be willing to risk their life/own personal safety for a victim that clearly had little regard for his own ?
 
Hey everybody, I'm brand new here, to posting that is, I've lurked for a while though.

Just seeing this video made me want to post. I guess I just want to say that the reaction of the people in that place was pathetic. It also it makes me want to get my CCW permit all the more.
 
While the size of the BG would warrent deadly force (by my understanding) because his size and apparent ability to open a can of whoop-ass (damn near tossed that guy like a rag doll with punches), drawing in that kind of situation would be bad (if you were the victom), because there is a lesser chance that the BG would take the gun off you if he doesn't know about it. If you draw, and he punches you again, takes your gun, now he is armed. Even if he doesn't use it on you, he might use it on someone else that his girl got mad at for scratching their eyebrow the wrong way. The victim was inherently stupid in his actions, however, in hindsight I imagine he would do things differently. If you weren't in a mindset for that kind of situation (thinking about it beforehand-not the particular situation, but a fight in general), then would you be prepared for it when it happened? I doubt I would. I'm supprised that the girl didnt get a battery, and battery by bodily fluids (different name in diff places, if it exists as a seperate charge).
 
I am curious however as to why people have posted about white people naturally fearing black people. As a black male I must admit that relevation is somewhat disturbing. I would hope that the fear or worry would be based on how a person carries themselves as opposed to the color of thier skin.
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Hey Zulu, I will address that because I am the one that brought it up. I like to speak from the heart on these kinds of issues and be honest. Let me tell you being a white guy, they ARE afraid of black people. Im not because I deal personally with the biggest thugs around at my work where I install systems. I have to get loud back with them, and not be pushed around. I will say from personal experience I have had 10 times as many conflicts with black people than white.

I think Zulu though that I couldnt agree with you more about a thug is a thug, but in my personal experiences and those of my close friends we have been attacked by black people for the stupidest things, like looking at them too long, or a way they didnt like. I have gotten into fights with black people at work because they didnt like me asking them to wait up front for their car and that they werent allowed in the install bay.The thing is you shouldnt take my comments personally because you are obviously not one of those thugs.

Maybe Im opening up a can of worms by talking about it, but its something I think alot of white people say amongst themselves but dont want to talk about it to blacks. I work with 4 black guys, all great people. My brother is married to a black woman, and my neices are mixed. I have no problem with black people, I have a problem with the kind of GM's and BG's in this video.

Having said that, I agree with you on the unedited version of the video. I feel less sympathy for him. And I really do think he gave up the second he saw the guy step up to him out of fear.
 
The reason white people fear black people probably stems from a few places. Now, I also know many black people, and have been good friends with some (recently moved, and dont have any friends) in the past. I don't say this out of racism, hate, or any thing of the sort, and it is pure speculation, but to me, kinda common sense. If I hit a black guy, I would probably get charged with a "hate crime" and get sued along the same lines. Im not saying its his fault for the charge, because he didn't have anything to do with the law. I again state that I am not a hatefull guy, and I would no more want to hit, punch, etc a black guy, spanish, mexican, puerto rican, oriental, white, or native american person. That is probably only part of it. The culture difference probably has something to do with it, not that it should, but it does. In this situation, I think it was just the BG's sheer size that did the trick. I dont mean to step on your toes Zulu, as we are on the same side. If you have a problem with my post, I will remove it.
 
Hey Everyone !
This video is all the more reason why we, as law abiding citizens, need to stand behind the NRA and any other org. that is fighting for our right to
" keep and bear arms ". If we lose this right, as some people in other US cities have, it will be all that more difficult to protect ourself and our families. Not impossible, but very difficult. I am no little man at 5' 11" and 218 lbs.
but I think one on one with that big SOB And no more help than I saw in this video, I would be in a world of hurt. People like this fellow will wait for you to let your guard down then try to beat you senseless. I have had my CCP ever since I was of age to get it, and will have it until I take my last breath.
 
I believe that most whites that are afraid of blacks are so more out of a lack of knowledge than anything else. I grew up in the bay area of California, very culturally diverse. It is human nature to fear what you don't know. We know there are some culture differences. That's a fact. I've got friends from several different ethnic and cultural differences. I've also got some friends that are very culturally ignorant. I've heard comments from some about the hispanics, or asians, or blacks. In N/W Arkansas we have a large number of recent immigrants. Lots of Cubans, Laotians, Viets, and Mexicans. I really believe that familiarity eliminates a lot of our biases and fears. Of course some are hopelessly ignorant and will never overcome it. And I strongly agree with the statement about thugs being thugs regardless of thier ethnic background. I guess we can only keep tying and moving forward.
 
"If I hit a black guy, I would probably get charged with a "hate crime" and get sued along the same lines. Im not saying its his fault for the charge, because he didn't have anything to do with the law. I again state that I am not a hatefull guy, and I would no more want to hit, punch, etc a black guy, spanish, mexican, puerto rican, oriental, white, or native american person. "

This is ridiculous Abelew! What the hell are you talking about?!?! This is quite possibly the most ridiculously ignorant statement I've ever read at TFL.

Seb5,

I agree with what you say.

I am somehwat infuriated now, and I had to come back to add to this post. First and foremost, I have to say that I am mixed. I am only half white. And to respond to a couple posts above about how they had 10 times more altercations with black people than white people, I have to say that I have had possibly 50 times more altercations with white people than any other race or mix of races! It depends on where you live, but I truly do appreciate places of more cultural and racial diversity. I have never been treated worse as a person than when I lived in the Southeast, and the midwest. (someone will probably ask where, so: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, South Dakota, North Dakota, Nebraska, Oklahoma). You want to talk about fear, let me tell you about what it's like when you are of another race than white, and have to work or go to school in a place where people are more than happy to vocalize disgust and demean your for not being white! I recognize that this is not the case EVERYwhere in the southeast and the midwest, but it is the case! I love the Southeast, and I love my family who lives there, but I will say that from MY point of view, people of other races and ethnicities are the LEAST to worry about compare to ignorant PEOPLE in general(notice that I didn't say ignorant WHITE people). Ignorance begets ignorance begets fear.
 
I believe that I have been saturated by the thugs. I worked prehospital emergency, on an ambulance, in a small city. I dealt with the lowest of the low. Yes, there were whites there too. City trash, trying to be getto. But, I have gone into homes, who they called for help, and ended up having an altercation with them, IN UNIFORM!! I have to say though, most of the blacks in the city that I have had trouble with were in their teens or early 20s. It is difficult to find much structure in a poverty stricken area though, I understand this. It's a shame. Some of these kids have talent in sports, are very smart, but they would rather be on the street "gang bangin''.

Every day I struggle with my predjudice and sterotypes. I am friends with two black physicians at the hospital, so I do see the other side, but then I end up dealing with the thugs again and it's like I am back at square one. I guess the thing is, the two black phsysicians I don't see as black, I see them as friends.

Anyway, back to the topic.
 
And to respond to a couple posts above about how they had 10 times more altercations with black people than white people, I have to say that I have had possibly 50 times more altercations with white people than any other race or mix of races!
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Am I not allowed to talk about my personal experiences? I think alot of people like to beat around the bush on this issue but what it comes down to is not "lack of familiarity" its personal experience. In my experience, alot of black people tend to be very beligerent. They make a situation escalate very quickly.One time walking w/ my girlfriend into my apartment a black guy walking VERYYYY SLLLOOOWLY in front of us started a fight with me because we were behind him and went to walk around him. He wanted to fight me because he wanted me to wait for him to walk at his pace. Is that right?
 
Anyway, back to the topic.
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yeah, anyway. I apologize if I have offended any of you out there. It was not my intention. I also did not want to take away from the real focus of this post and that is WHAT WOULD WE DO IF IT WAS US.

Its easy for everyone to sit at their computer and say..well I would have diffused the situation. Yeah one of us might be able, with pepper spray, or having to force him to stop at gunpoint. But, we werent there, so it doesnt really matter. We just have to learn from this situation and be prepared for ourselves in case something like this happens to us.
 
In my experience, alot of black people tend to be very beligerent. They make a situation escalate very quickly.
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To be fair maybe it has something to do with the company they're keeping at that time. Hey we have to be open minded right!

kenny b
 
First, I don't think pepper spray would have stopped this bad guy. I don't think seeing the muzzle of a gun would have stopped him either. Stopping him would have taken lethal force in my opinion. Cell phone guy is lucky he is not dead, and apparently escalated GM who was first arguing at the counter. There are no "sucker punches" in my book, only effective punches. Cell phone guy looked away in a feeble attempt to defuse the situation and got hit. That does not mean he deserved to be beaten like that.

Had I been there with my CCW, I cannot say what I would have done. You cannot see Cell phone guy on the floor. I have little doubt that had lethal force been produced, it would have escalated the conflict further and required using. Cellphone guy lived, so lethal force, in the end, was not warranted to save his life. Of course how could you predict that? I just cannot say what I would have done.

Zulu, I sincerely hope that you were not offended. Your prescence here is valued. From my perspective in North Louisiana, in a job that takes me into black homes and white homes, I can honestly say that I have seen more intolerance and bigotry among whites than blacks. Perhaps this is because I am white and white people feel more open to make remarks. In black homes I have almost always been treated with respect and appreciation, by young blacks that might be seen as thugs, as well as their elders.

I feel that the issue is really a person's feelings of control or feelings of loss of control of their lives. Most white people fail to understand black people. We all ascribe our own perceptions to others, but a black person's life experience is very different than a white person's. Some things that a white person shrugs off are seen as humiliating by a black person. A white person is often very surprised when they realize that they have offended a black person. The surprise quickly morphs into fear. Then they fear offending a black person again unwittingly. Soon, simply because they are treading so carefully around black people, that in itself can offend. So the white person finds himself in a vicious circle, and the fear increases and then the stereotypes start to be accepted.

In my years of working with people of all races, creeds and experiences, I have found that the only thing that can be counted on not to offend someone is respect. True respect can never offend. We are all free to say what we want, but we must be prepared to accept the consequences. Getting back to the video, GM's anger was focused at the counter. She then turned it viciously onto the Cell phone guy. I have to wonder why. It does not justify his beating in any way, but I have to wonder if a little respect from Cell phone guy would have served him better than a few harsh words into his telephone. As for the guys standing around, I will not judge them.

If anything, this video is a potent reminder that avoidance of conflict is the best path to take.
 
Howdy,
I just wanted to post that I have'nt been the least bit offended by anyone's comments at all. I realize that a great many people are reflecting on personal expirences and there's no way to fault one for that.
I am curious though as to whether the size of the BG were more of a factor as far as people not rendering aid. I feel that if the BG were 5'2" 155lbs.(because thugs come in all colors,shapes,and sizes) ,pehaps the people in the resturant would have been more willing to lend a hand. I'm pretty sure that if the BG were of a consideribly smaller physically that there would not have been as many posts regarding the use justifible force.
I guess now I'm the one sterotyping but, the smaller the BG, the less assumption of threat(firearms not being present of course). Ultimately all BG's are threats,but does make a difference in how a person reacts to a situation.
 
Cellphone guy lived, so lethal force, in the end, was not warranted to save his life.
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Risk of death is not the only justification for deadly force - risk of great bodily harm, which the victim most certainly suffered, is another justification.
 
I guess I'll interject also...might be a little long....

Firstly, about the video. I currently don't CCW as I haven't purchased my gun yet, although I've had my permit for about 8 years. I've always owned "functional" guns (Varmint Plinker .22, and Thompson Center for Varmints). Never saw the need, but I've decided to for a couple reasons. Firstly, because "you never know", and secondly, simply because I have a right to.

Personally, I think the guy that got the beat down brought it upon himself. However, I think the BG was looking to swat someone. Mostly because he'd probably been dealing with GM's BS all frigging day. The problem with the video is, we don't see her actually enter the store - so we don't know why she was acting the way she did. Either way, looked like she thought she was entitled to her Pizza first. "Victim" was on the phone, and made a comment to whomever he was talking to about her beligerant activity. (there IS volume with the clip if you turn it way up. He said something that pissed her off) That was his first mistake and prompted her personal attention to him - which I believe was intentional. I'm never in such a rush, I would insult a beligerant person in an attempt to get them to the back of the line.

His second mistake was "stepping" to her, and then stepping to BG and letting his guard down. That was simply stupid. He knew he was going to get is @$$ beat at that point I think... As did everyone else. I would have been unable to do anything in that situation, other than possibly try to reason with the guy. I have no pepper spray or gun (both problems will be rectified shortly).

Black Vs. White
Zulu - I'm actually surprised by your surprise! I thought that was common knowledge... ;) I would like to preface by saying, all of this is normal conversation for me. Some of it may come off sounding bad, as I'm sometimes not good at wording things. I just say it like I see it. These comments are based soley on my personal experiences, and experiences of close friends. When I use the word "they or them", I don't mean it in a bad way - likewise when I use the word "we or us". There is really no other way to say it...

Well, I'm a white guy, from a very small town. I get uncomfortable around large groups of CERTAIN LOOKING blacks for several reasons. Perhaps I should preface by saying, I work in corporate america, side by side with just about every race. I had an Indian (not native american) roomate, and am good friends with gammot of races, from asian to black.

Reason one - from my experiences, large groups of blacks (I'm talking about late teens, early 20's) can get somewhat unruly. In college for instance, for some reason, the black students were always VERY loud in the cafeteria. Screaming, jumping up on the tables, and just being very animated in conversation. Not bothering anyone else, other than the noise. This behavior got the the point where cafeteria staff had to actually speak to these students. Graduating from a small school with only two black students, this was somewhat of a shock to me. I never felt threatened by them however.

Blacks stick together. This is the sad part of being a white person. Blacks, traditionally, stick up for one another far more from whites - I think due to having to defend themselves constantly. I truly believe had that pizza parlor situation been completely reversed, race wise, the BG would have gotten his @$$ stomped by the other patrons... This same stick togetherness is the same reason, a small group of blacks is intimidating to a single white guy. If there is an altercation with one of them, you can count on getting your rear end beat down by all of them. White people, even with each other, will typically let the two that are having the problem duke it out, and once there is an obvious winner, they would normall just break them up, this opinion excludes "punks" who are out just looking to hurt people.

I've experienced this same phenomena with the Puerto Ricans in our area. Not equating the two races, only comparing minorities in a given community. This is actually interesting. A church group brought in an underprivileged Puerto Rican extended family to our town of 5000 conservative white people. At first, due to ignorance, etc., they were not really accepted. They got on their feet, started living a life, and the children grew and so on... Anyway, I'm not sure what happened. All of the sudden they turned into a bunch of "gang-bangers", wearing the "do-rags" and the down coats and having the attitudes. None of them ever left our town for college or anything. They just suddenly turned "ghetto". In a town of 5000, with one stoplight. There isn't really much gang activity - or a ghetto or projects. :rolleyes:

To make a long story, even longer, they were out at the bars a couple weekends ago. Every 10-20 minutes there was an altercation that almost led to a fight (you know, the shoving etc.). One of them was all juiced up on roids, looking to fight. Another was antagonizing people so the juicer could "have his back". The reason for all the altercations? I believe paranoia. Every time someone even looked at them, said anything, or bumped into them, at least one of them thought they were being "dissed". It was a crowded bar, relax, have a good time, occasionally people might bump into you. There were a couple punks there that started in with them for one reason or another. But many times it was out of their need for "respect", which I think is a bunch of BS. Act in a respectful manner, and you will recieve it. You can't demand it. I ended up leaving. I didn't know which one of them had guns or knives, and didn't want to be there if a brawl broke out....

Moving near NYC, and living in some more urban areas, has really helped ease my "fears". One day, in NJ I was looking for a fishing spot... They have these parks with small ponds where people can fish. Well there were these 4 black guys sitting on a picnic table. It was a somewhat secluded area hidden from the street by bushes etc. I was alone. They ranged from early 30's to late 40's. I mean these were typical "shoulda been scared of" BIG black guys. Gold teeth, ghetto clothes, big afro's. I mean they were straight outta the hood as far as a little country white boy like me was concerned. I put aside my preconcieved notions, stereotypes, and said screw it.

I somewhat ignored them, as I walked around the pond looking for fish. I didn't want to "dis" them. Suddenly they said "What you looking for? Fish?!" So I told them yes, they asked if I was a Cop. I said no. That kind of put me on alert. I kept them all in front of me, and an exit behind me, as well as some distance between us. Enough to be safe, but not look scared or volnurable. Turned out, they had a 12-er of Heiniken hidden in the bushes and wanted to crack another one. They offered me one, and I politely declined, told them I was leaving soon and just wanted to check it out. They told me the story of a "big 'ol snappin turtle" that ate all the fish in the pond. Nothing happened, and I left....

I actually felt really good about myself that day. I had overcome stereotypes, unfounded opinions, and so on. They were just some regular guys, getting toasted in the park, much like many white people I know do...

But, I was still more scared because they were black, than I would have been had they been white... Can't explain why, thats just the way it is....

Thanks for reading... Hopefully no offense was taken, none was intended...
Bo
 
Risk of death is not the only justification for deadly force - risk of great bodily harm, which the victim most certainly suffered, is another justification.
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I did not say that lethal force was not justified. I stated it was not warranted to save his life.

If the law states lethal force is justified under circumstance X and Y, a person is free to choose only X as their personal requirement. They may also choose Y only, or X&Y. There is no legal obligation to act. For me to become involved to save a stranger, I would have to feel his life was in jeopardy to place my freedom in jeopardy. My family is another matter altogether. Basically for me, when I make that call to employ lethal force to protect another person, I ask "Am I willing to die for this person?" That may very well be the consequence of producing lethal force. That stranger deserves to live, but my children deserve a Daddy as well. Where do my priorities lay? Had Cell phone guy been my son, there would have been a different response from me.

I work with people on a daily basis who have suffered grave bodily injury, and I guess that does not motivate me quite as much. I do not fault people who would have acted, nor do I fault those who did not. I can only hold my actions into account, and I was not there.
 
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