Workplace death threats against me.

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If you think this threat is viable in any way, I'd suggest a bit of "extra heavy clothing" if you catch my drift.

The suggestion of walking the guy through the whole HR bit is a good idea - spread the wealth, as it were. & do have LEO presence. We had a couple very similar situations & the LEOs were more than glad to cooperate. Too much of this stuff happening these days & LEO would be sadly remiss if they didn't take it seriously as well.

Cell phone - sure. But, it won't save your life. You'll be responsible for that. LEOs will come to pick up the pieces & document what happened. (Zip LEO flames but that's reality)

Check 6, DAL & fingers crossed for a post next week.
 
I knew a woman with problems. One coworker told her to get a restraining order. She did. The other suggested she buy a gun. She did that too.

The armed perpetrator forced her off the road and jumped on the hood of her car. She shot first - through her windshield.

My point? That restraining didn't prevent the perp from attempting to assault her (gee, I wonder why?). But it helped close the case when the DA ruled self defense. I hope it never comes to that for you Dal.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Do GET L.E. involved EVERY time a threat is communicated to you, either directly or indirectly.
A record is your best defense if it goes to H.I.A.H.B.

If not for yourself, do it for your Family !

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
E-mail hotshot_2000@hotmail.com
Alternate E-mail
HS2000@ausi.com
 
Might have missed this but talk to your own lawyer and see if it is worth writing a letter to the company about their liability to you.

Spyderco and a NAA mini ain't a bad idea either. OC is more concealable than Easy-Off.
 
Okay, a Peace Officer can look in the car windows, and if something is in plain sight (Plain Sight Doctrine) and is unlawful, then the Peace Officer is justified in entering the car for the purpose of seizing the unlawful item.

If the Peace Officer cannot see anything, then a search warrant must be obtained before the vehicle can be entered and searched.

While the EZ-Off is an excellent example of Deadly Force, there may be a problem with intentionally and knowingly modifying the can to increase range, and lethality before you are actually faced with Death or Serious Bodily Injury.

I, personally, wouldn't do it, but that is up to you to decide.

I strongly favor the ASP KeyDefenders. They usually run between $20-$30 and look totally innocuous on a keychain.

Also, be aware that in most States, it is unlawful to utter threats against another person, if the threats, or the person uttering them, would cause a reasonable person to fear for his life.

Good luck, stay frosty, and let us know how it goes.

LawDog
 
You treat him just like he was a rattle snake. Have Human resources Let him know of the fact that everyone is aware of the threat If he is bent on settling the score your life is your responsibly be prepared to defend it. Shoot first and shoot straightest. Your family deserves that.
 
LAWDOG,
Hey, I've got a question about the Plain Sight topic. If the vehicle is on personal property, or "company" property like there, does the LEO still have to obtain a SW?
By virtue it's on private property, does the "company" have any bearing on that issue?
Can they have their own security personnel search the vehicle?
Just color me curious.
I remember a case @10 yrs ago, with the BN railroad, where the Special Agents used dogs to sniff cars with pot in them, then opened the vehicles. The owners were fired as a result of that stuff. Personally I thought it was bullsh!t, but that didn't involved life threats either...

Best Regards,
Don

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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited February 27, 2000).]
 
Dal, I will keep you in my prayers. My advice would be to carry your gun. We would much rather hear a story about a man who saved his life with a gun than another crazy ticked off worker going on a shooting rampage. Be safe and we will all be looking forward to seeing you post next week.
 
By all means call the Police, better safe than sorry. They are trained to handle situtations like this and they have the authority to act. I am a Police Chief and quite frequently we get calls to remove problem, terminated employees from the premeisses. We are glad to to this for our business community, it is a part of our job, and cuts down on problems. In these cases we tell the discharged employee that if they come back on company property, they will be arrested, for tresspass after warning. We ask the management infront of the terminated employee, if he is allowed back on company property. They always say no and if the guy comes back, he's busted, but of course the management signs the warrant of arrest and we execute it. But civillian companys, do not have a monopoly on mental case exemployees. I had to fire one of my Officers last week, his coworkers said they figured he might be a serious threat. The guy fit the discription, of being a loose cannon and dangerous. While he was standing in front of my desk geting his termination proceeding. I had a cocked and unlocked 1911 on my desk under a magazine. Like I said better safe than sorry...7th

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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
 
Donny,

Plain Sight Doctrine usually works on the premise that the vehicle has been stopped for some offense, but it is flexible.

If your vehicle is on your private property (in your driveway), then a Peace Officer will need a Search Warrant or a valid reason for being on your property, before he can look in your car.

In Texas, public property is defined as any property to which the public, or a substantial portion of the public, has access.

Company property falls into a grey area: is it private or is it public? Does the Public, or a substantial portion of the Public have access to that parking lot?

Added to that is the fact that some companies have a "Look in your Car" clause in the company rules and regs. Also add to the fact that Security Officers operating on the property that they are contracted to protect are not acting on behalf of the Government, or as agents of the Government, and thus are exempt from some of the Reasonable Suspicion and Probable Cause requirements.

In the Burlington Northern case that you cite, a dog alerting on the smell of an controlled substance is enough Probable Cause to obtain a Search Warrant for search of the vehicle.
Hope that helps,

LawDog
 
FYI..
EZ-Off oven cleaner's main and active ingredient is concentrated sodium hydroxide, a corrosive alkaline. It will burn and scar flesh and assuredly irreversibly damage eyes and tear ducts, resulting in permanent blindness.

I'd guess your criminal/civil liability would be less if you shot him with a gun.

FWIW

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
While the EZ-Off is an excellent example of Deadly Force, there may be a problem with
intentionally and knowingly modifying the can to increase range, and lethality before you are actually faced with Death or Serious Bodily Injury.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Deadly Force? Name ONE person killed by EZ off. But we can sure name em killed with batons, and pepper sprays can't we? Want to discuss Capstun?
Yes, it blinds and burns. I thought we were discussing a serious personal threat. It isn't a sporting event. Ask a woman if she'd prefer a nice rape vs melting the rapists eyes out and letting them run down his cheeks. When he shows up for court if he decides to sue you, he'll need a dog to find the courtroom.
A serious personal attack/threat is no time to worry about being "nice." It is about what works. Again, we try to let concerns of MONEY dictate survival. Now that is an ODD oxymoron in my book. I can always file bankruptcy. I can't come back from the dead.
If I think someone is a threat to me or my family they better bring a lunch. It will be an all day job if I can do anything about it.
I'll trade the jerks eyeballs for my hide anyday regardless of price.
Groucho Marx once asked a starlet if she'd sleep with him for $100,000. She said, "sure." Then he said, "how about $20?"
She blinded and replied, " What kind of girl do you think I am?"
Groucho rolled his yes and said, " we established that, and now we are arguing price."
 
If your company has an HR department, they probably have a legal department too. Lawdog's comment contained some important questions that the company lawyers may be able to answer. At least make them aware of the threat and document that you let them know they have a duty to provide a safe workplace in the face of this threat. Finally, good luck and please consider the excellent advice posted by others above.

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Show someone the way
to the NRA
 
Hmm.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Deadly Force?[/quote]
Deadly Force is defined as a level of force which is capable of causing Death or Serious Bodily Injury.

Now, the Death part is fairly obvious.

In the EZ-Off scenario, inhaling caustic solution into your sinuses and lungs causes the lungs to fill with fluid in a attempt to flush the solution out. This produces a condition known as "Dry-land drowning"--in which a person drowns in the fluid produced by their own lungs without ever having been near water.

"Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that
creates a substantial risk of death or that causes death,
serious permanent disfigurement, or protracted loss or
impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ.

Now, I'm just an lil' ol' ex-small town deputy, but it seems to me that getting caustic substance sprayed in the eyes leads to a pretty good chance of one of the highlighted to occur.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Want to discuss Capstun?[/quote]

Want to discuss using a product designed and marketed for self-defense, vs. a product designed for cleaning ovens and clearly marked: 'Do Not Spray Near Skin. May Cause Blindness or Death?'

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Deadly Force? Name ONE person killed by EZ off. But we can sure name em killed with batons, and pepper sprays
can't we? Want to discuss Capstun?[/quote]

Are you arguing that it okay to maim, blind and possibly kill someone with EZ-Off, but it's not okay to possibly kill them with OC?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought we were discussing a serious personal threat.[/quote]

No, we're discussing the possibility of a personal threat. If we were discussing a serious personal threat, I would have advised him not to show up for work, or at least take a shotgun.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When he
shows up for court if he decides to sue you, he'll need a dog to find the courtroom. [/quote]

And the dog and the melted skin will be a nice touch for his attorney to show the jury.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A serious personal attack/threat is no time to worry about being "nice."[/quote]

Quite right. It is also not a time to let your common-sense flitter away.

If you are in danger for your life right then and a can of EZ-Off is the only thing that will save you, then by all means use it. Don't modify the can and carry it with you. Something about 'cruel and unusual punishment' comes to mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can always file bankruptcy. [/quote]

If you intentionally and knowingly modify a can of EZ-Off, with the purpose of using it to blind or kill a certain person, a lawsuit will be the least of your worries.

If you fear for your life, carry something that you trust, carry something that is designed and marketed for self-defense.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited March 01, 2000).]
 
Cops have often used flashlights for self defense and they sure are NOT designed for that purpose. You kinda left that one out. Also if your life is in danger the weapon isn't an issue. Like I said you can't find ONE case of death by EZ Off and try to come up with a "maybe" or "perhaps" non-scientific medical theory. We KNOW many have died from OC but depts still use it KNOWING it can and will kill. There are dangers to OC and other chemicals. We had two killed here from flash bangs. Like I said, you worry about finances, I'll worry about living. Easy choice in the real world. You didn't say how to come back from the dead. I explained how bankruptcy works. I'll put EZ-Off in a pail if it will work and I need it. I'll use a garden hose, fence post, fire extinguisher, or rip the arm or leg from the thug and beat em with that.
Glad you have such a sense of "fair play."
 
It's not so much a sense of fair play, as it is a desire to not only live, but to live without a murder, manslaughter or aggravated assault conviction.

As far as the flashlights go, do most cops modify their lights to increase damage? With the intent of using the flashlight on a specific person?

You see, there's the rub. You specifically suggested that an item be modified to increase damage, and for that modified item to be carried and used against a specific person.

I do not have a problem with using whatever is to hand to defend your life or someone elses. But for you to modify an everyday item with malicious intent--well, that goes a little too far.

LawDog



[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited March 01, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>come up with
a "maybe" or "perhaps" non-scientific medical theory.[/quote]

Oh, dear. I shall inform the writers of the EMT manuals at once. Not to mention the Instructors. Poor fellows have been listening to medical doctors all these years.

I should also notify CHEMTREC and the staff of Bethania Medical Center.

"Dr. Mercer, do you remember when I was over at your office yesterday for a check-up and I asked you that question about the inhalation of EZ-Off?"

"Yes, sir. That question. Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you that your explanation of the phenomenon of 'Dry Land Drowning' is unscientific."

I'm sure it will absolutely crush him. Poor guy. He's only the Chief Trauma Specialist for North Texas.

LawDog



[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited March 01, 2000).]
 
I've worked in management type positions at large factories with a zero tolerance drug policys. You can imagine the feelings of some of the employees when they are escorted out of the plant after having failed a drug test. I don't know what to advise you if it is against the rules to carry a concealed pistol at your company. I can only say that under the circumstances I would probably break the rules and be extra careful about the concealment (something you should always do anyway). Last, but not least, don't be a hero. If you see signs that something is going to happen, get the hell out of the building and call the police or security.
 
You need to read the book,"The Gift of Fear" by I believe Garvin Debecker. He has specialized in giving major corporations advice on how to handle exactly your situation. He also is good reading for the women out there on what red flags to look out for and how to listen to that "little inner voice" that will warn us and see/hear things that the conscious mind will not. One chapter is on speaking with women who were raped or almost killed and how after the experience they could see the warning signs that they sensed but did not act on. The book just may save the life of your wife or children. Knowledge is power and more so than a gun at times. You are down grading the situation by saying he is a coward. Many people have been killed by cowards.This guy is a bomb waiting to go off and the little you told about him, I.E. always getting into conflicts with others, making threats, having a gun, indicate you need to be armed and aware.
 
ALL: My apologies for being OT.

pluspinc: Quote - "We had two killed here from flashbangs."

I presume 'here' means your home state of Minnesota. What were the dates and jurisdictions in which these flashbang fatalities occured?

ALL: Again my apologies.
 
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