Women, Affirmative Action, Law Enforcement

There's another way to look at that situation, which is also a lesson in not burning bridges.....Why would a white guy want to work for a place where something like that is even possible. I'm sure they fired the guy as a scapegoat, not because they didn't approve of the policy. Those guys should start putting in applications at other places as soon as they possibly can. If they're smart, the'll realize I'm right now, instead of waiting 15 years to find out.

that is one of the most racist pieces of bigoted tripe i've read in ALONG time.

why would Rossa Parks want to ride on the front of the bus?

why would a black man want to go to a "white" college?

why would a woman want to be a ceo?

why would a "negro" want to play baseball?

BECAUSE IT IS THIER RIGHT

!
 
that is one of the most racist pieces of bigoted tripe i've read in ALONG time.

why would Rossa Parks want to ride on the front of the bus?

why would a black man want to go to a "white" college?

why would a woman want to be a ceo?

why would a "negro" want to play baseball?

BECAUSE IT IS THIER RIGHT

Just because you have a right to do something doesn't necessarily make that "something" worth doing for a variety of reasons. How was what I said racist? What was racist was when the European-Americans were fired to make room for people of another race, based on race. What is racist about avoiding employment with an agency (the county) that would let this happen if you don't want the headaches? Would Rosa Parks have been a racist if she'd have arranged some other way to get around in order to avoid having to deal with the racist bus policy? Would Jackie Robinson have been a racist if he would have decided not to play baseball because of the institutional racism? Would a white guy be a racist if he decided not to take a promotion test because affirmative action stacked the odds against him, and moved on to a better paying department where affirmative action was not as big a factor in hiring or promotions? Is a woman a bigot if she decides to stay at home and have kids and not work becuase she doesn't want to put up with sexism in the workplace? Is a black man a racist because he goes to a black college that's easier for him to get into than, for instance, the University of Michigan School of Law rather than fighting court decisions that say it's now illegal to give preferential treatments to African Americans for admission into the U of M Law School?

What exactly was racist about what I posted? Is it defacto racist whenever a European-American talks about race in hiring or promotions?
 
Handy
I asked several senior pilots, all members of a fairly small community, if they could think of any female mishaps. There are only a handful of fighter squadrons, even fewer carrier air wings, and they all know each other. It is an organization that is much too small to hide a mishap OR the people involved. Every mishap in my aviation community I knew the names of everyone involved in days
I can buy this and very reasonable to a degree .....

I think it is REALLY obvious that you know zero about the size, structure or life in the Navy, so please stop impugning it with your ignorance. When you tell me that senior pilots aren't telling me facts, you're calling them, or me, liars - because they know about all the mishaps (there are relatively few per year).
On the contrary, I know quite well. Politically and structurally it differs little if any from the Air Force - or the Army and Marines for that matter - and I doubt that every single Navy pilot, nor every single Air Force pilot, is aware of every single crash be it a basic prop trainer at a flight school, a test squadron at the corner of some stateside base, or combat wing on the other side of the globe.

There is no logical reason why the Navy (or any other branch of the service for that matter) should not make the data available.

On the general subject matter I am against women in combat roles in any sense. I think the closest they should be is the mobile field hospitals.
 
and I doubt that every single Navy pilot, nor every single Air Force pilot, is aware of every single crash be it a basic prop trainer at a flight school, a test squadron at the corner of some stateside base, or combat wing on the other side of the globe.
And again, you're wrong. The aviation safety officer briefs EVERY major mishap to his squadron, regardless of platform. A running tally by type is available on the squadron "All read" board and on the .mil safety center website.

The Navy Safety Center, in an effort to get good safety data, does not publish the names of mishap pilots. But as only 3 or 4 F/A-18s go down in a year, it is not hard to connect names with mishaps.

Within a specific community much more information is informally available as the communities are quite small. At that level, they do know the name, rank and background of the people involved. Wingmen, instructors and friends will talk amongst themselves.

There is no logical reason why the Navy (or any other branch of the service for that matter) should not make the data available.
They ultimately do, through the freedom of information act. But the Navy does not feel it needs to keep statistics related to the height, race, gender, marital status or any other extraneous details about its pilots.

It takes a certain kind of person to assume that someone's gender (or race) could possibly have anything to do with their ability to sit in a chair and make an airplane go. I see you are that kind of person.
 
Handy
And again, you're wrong. The aviation safety officer briefs EVERY major mishap to his squadron, regardless of platform. A running tally by type is available on the squadron "All read" board and on the .mil safety center website.
The Navy Safety Center, in an effort to get good safety data, does not publish the names of mishap pilots. But as only 3 or 4 F/A-18s go down in a year, it is not hard to connect names with mishaps.
Well now you are away from the local "informal pole" and entering into the area of official mouthpieces. Maybe connecting gender to three or four aircraft specific incidents might not be a monunmental task - but every crash or mishap in the dozens of other fixed and rotary wing aircraft types - in dozens of different squadrons scattered around the world? I doubt it.

Why on earth should "not publishing names" make for "good safety data" as opposed to open data disclosure?

They ultimately do, through the freedom of information act. But the Navy does not feel it needs to keep statistics related to the height, race, gender, marital status or any other extraneous details about its pilots.
Sure, alot of things are available via an FOIA request; but the question remains, if there is no statistical difference - why hide it there to begin with?

It takes a certain kind of person to assume that someone's gender (or race) could possibly have anything to do with their ability to sit in a chair and make an airplane go. I see you are that kind of person.
Utter BS, and you know it. There is alot more to safely piloting different aircraft in all conditions - and much more flying a high performance jet fighter.

And you continue to pretend that what is scientifically established does not exist; that men and women differ in many ways other than physical build and reproductive functions. There is a disparity of a considerable number of skills, as in the cognitive and visual-spatial area for example. This is matter of fact, and why women do not compete favorably against men in car or motorcycle racing for example.

It's all very heartening to see a lady capable of taking care of business with a firearm and defending herself, or taking care of any other dangerous or precarious business as it arises out of necessity. But let's not attempt to use that to blur scientific fact with this myth of gender equality, to try and justify placing women in such areas as routine.
 
This is matter of fact, and why women do not compete favorably against men in car or motorcycle racing for example.
Lak, you keep refering back to this. I have noticed a lack of Black and Hispanic "winners" in the Nacar circle, also. Under your logic, then, are races less proficient at the sport, and thus at other things as well?
Instead, could it be that Nascar and other car and motorcycle sports have historically been the sport of bluecollar white menfolk? That both people of color and women may not have felt comfortable or invited to participate? Could it be that less women are interested in driving for a living, thus the pool of female competitors is much, much smaller than that of men? I enjoy watching the little cars go 'round the big track, but have never been inclined to drive one. There are other female children who may have possessed that desire but either it was poo-poo-ed by their daddys who said to their sons "that could be you some day," and to the girl, "honey go get me another beer."
Personally, I feel Nascar is moving again from its hillbilly roots, that big money and advertising has taken over. I am not saying that that is a good thing over all. However, over time, I think you will find more female competitors in the sport. As well as people of different races. It could be argued that Nascar is sort of the "last hold out" of the boys-only crowd. So your choice of an example is actually a valid one.
The argument is not whether men and women are different in certain ways. Hell, we all figured that out in high school, didn't we? It is a question of whether there are jobs that women can not do as well as men. And there are a few, where brute strength is necessary. Certain Special Ops positions perhaps. But flying a plane, driving a car, working in law enforcement, running a business, owning a business, tending a bar...by and large women can do the job that men can do. And have been doing so for some time now.
 
LAK,

The Safety Center promises a type of confidentiality in exchange for utter truth on the part of the mishap crew. Nothing they tell the Safety investigators is tied directly to them so it can't be used in a Jag investigation. I'm familiar with this process from having conducted two mishap investigations.


I can only tell you, AGAIN, that the number of crashes per year is so small that it is quite easy to account for them. I note that you are switching gear, since your original premise was that women weren't good for fighter pilots - so I asked senior fighter people. As you know, women have been piloting helos and transport aircraft since the early '80s, and no one considered publishing a book about their supposed failures.

But there aren't any problems there, either. If there was, some chauvenist would have written something like that bile on your bookshelf a long time ago.


The fact is, motorcycles take alot of shoulder strength to throw around, and race cars and airplanes do not. And there are competitive females in race cars - competing against men (your knowledge of racing and the Navy being equal).

As far as these "physiological differences" you know so much about, you're of course aware that the female circulatory system is ultimately better for resisting G forces, right?


In a very few instances, upper body strength could play a role. Last year an A-10 pilot in Iraq had a total hydraulic failure. Against the book, the pilot decided to try and save the plane by landing it, despite the extremely heavy stick pressures needed to control the plane. The pilot was successful.

Oh, and she was tall, thin and blond.



So please drop this crap, since you don't have a leg to stand on. This is starting to become like a conversation about race with a phrenologist. You don't have any facts to back up this wrong-headed notion that women are poor pilots. I have all the facts that support them being no worse then men.
 
Charley,

There are no lack of women already engaged in what were previously almost exclusively men's activities. There are female race car drivers, motorcycle racers, tennis players, golf players - yes even aerobatic pilots. But generally they have their own class tournaments etc. Why? Because overall they can not compete with men on equal footing - even in activities where disparity of physical strength is not significant.

Running or owning a business, tending a bar etc are not the kind of activities where gender disparities are going to be signficant.

I agree, NASCAR is largely under the reins of corporate interests.

Handy
The Safety Center promises a type of confidentiality in exchange for utter truth on the part of the mishap crew. Nothing they tell the Safety investigators is tied directly to them so it can't be used in a Jag investigation. I'm familiar with this process from having conducted two mishap investigations.
That is interesting; so how does that fit in where a pilot or other crew member may have been negligent or reckless in their actions leading to a mishap? And this is assuming that the crew are alive to talk about it for that matter.

I can only tell you, AGAIN, that the number of crashes per year is so small that it is quite easy to account for them. I note that you are switching gear, since your original premise was that women weren't good for fighter pilots - so I asked senior fighter people. As you know, women have been piloting helos and transport aircraft since the early '80s, and no one considered publishing a book about their supposed failures
My original premise is that they are not on the same level as male pilots - hence an un-necessary increased liability. Every search for data on web from institutional sources I have tried has met with a stone wall. You either need to be a "member" or a search of site archives just returns a "no results". But apparently in commercial airline industry the female to male pilot accident ratio rate is four to one and that has the been published in some journals.

Actually women have been piloting helos and fixed wing aircraft almost since they were respectively introduced into general aviation. They have also seen much wartime service in roles such as ferry pilots.

I do not know how many books have been published on the relative safety record of male versus female pilots either.

The fact is, motorcycles take alot of shoulder strength to throw around, and race cars and airplanes do not. And there are competitive females in race cars - competing against men (your knowledge of racing and the Navy being equal).
On point one you are wrong. I have many thousands of miles on bikes weighing about 700 lbs dry on down. Motorcycle riding - especially racing - requires more judgement, mental skills and hand-eye coordination than anything else. In fact the skills involved in riding a motorcycle are perhaps closer than most anything else on terra firma to actually flying a plane.

There are women in motorcycle racing - plenty of them on the club level. But you will not see them competing favorably against men on the professional circuits, let alone the most demanding road courses like the Isle of Man TT.

As far as these "physiological differences" you know so much about, you're of course aware that the female circulatory system is ultimately better for resisting G forces, right?
Could well be. There are a long list of charactaristics in which the sexes differ.

In a very few instances, upper body strength could play a role. Last year an A-10 pilot in Iraq had a total hydraulic failure. Against the book, the pilot decided to try and save the plane by landing it, despite the extremely heavy stick pressures needed to control the plane. The pilot was successful.
Oh, and she was tall, thin and blond.
Good for her; and she breaks the mould - statistically female pilots are apparently less likely to try and fly and aircraft with known defects.

So please drop this crap, since you don't have a leg to stand on. This is starting to become like a conversation about race with a phrenologist. You don't have any facts to back up this wrong-headed notion that women are poor pilots. I have all the facts that support them being no worse then men.
Drop it anytime you please. Human psychology, physiology, and the statistics in the commercial aviation realm do not seem to support your point of view. I have a hard time accepting that they are any better at flying high performance jet fighters, and I have been unable to uncover any official Navy (or other service branch) data to the contrary.
 
are there any significant sports, where the women do not get a "special" group, where they have to compete against men?
 
I have a hard time accepting that they are any better at flying high performance jet fighters, and I have been unable to uncover any official Navy (or other service branch) data to the contrary.
This should read:
"I have a hard time accepting that they are any better at flying high performance jet fighters, BUT I have been unable to uncover any official Navy (or other service branch) data to the contrary."

Because there is no data to support your prejudice. You'll label any woman who does well "breaking the mould" and every statistic that doesn't support your premise "unreliable". Since it is something you have "a hard time accepting", you'll never consider any answer that doesn't fit you're decidedly inflexible world view, that has little time for inconvenient facts.


By the way, aside from being a Navy pilot, I'm also a motorcycle rider. I understand you're only one of those? Again, who knows more about the topic?


K_dawg - Stunt flying, shooting, auto racing and billiards are the first to come to mind. And I don't think the recent foray by a woman into pro-golf was an anomoly - they'll be back. While women have made great strides in many sports (the women's winning time in the Ironman one year was faster than the men's time three years previously), the top women's musculature is not as powerful as the top men in any professional sport. There is some evidence that women may eventually match men in ultra-endurance sports, but there's also evidence that those sports will be permanently taken over by the Kenyans.
 
K Dawg
are there any significant sports, where the women do not get a "special" group, where they have to compete against men?
Marriage; and using their superior strengths and skills in this game they usually manage to get control of the budget ... and everything else follows soon after. :D
 
Handy
Because there is no data to support your prejudice. You'll label any woman who does well "breaking the mould" and every statistic that doesn't support your premise "unreliable".
No; commenting on the example you cited where a lady pilot brought down an A-10 sans hydraulics I merely noted that her actions were an exception to a general trend in one study which noted that (commercial airline pilots) female pilots were less likely to risk flying an aircraft with known defects.

Since it is something you have "a hard time accepting", you'll never consider any answer that doesn't fit you're decidedly inflexible world view, that has little time for inconvenient facts.
You have no science nor accessible official data to support your "facts". Your worldview is equally inflexible, which makes sense; any arguement that claims to be principled or based on fact is inflexible. But don't inflate yourself, in effect you are doing precisely what you accuse me of.

By the way, aside from being a Navy pilot, I'm also a motorcycle rider. I understand you're only one of those? Again, who knows more about the topic?
My observation is that some of the fastest riders on some of the most demanding road courses have often been rather skinny and puny. Joey Dunlop comes to mind; I have footage taken with a camera mounted on his Honda V4 during a demo practice lap at the 1983 I.O.M. TT that might even make your hair stand on end.

My own experience is that it is not muscle that makes for going really fast on twisty roads - but a combination of mental abilities and skills. Of course steering geometry, weight (sprung and unsprung), center of gravity, wheel size, tires etc all affect the physical effort needed to switch rapidly in closely spaced bends - but modern racing machines are generally very light and in any case rapid transitions are made by counter-steering, not shoulder muscle. The image of riders throwing their bodies over the side while heeling into corners might give the novice the impression that brute strength is required, but hanging off is merely a way to shift the combined center of gravity of machine and rider while cornering.

Offroad things are much different; but in roadracing judgement, eye-hand coordination and skills are far more significant than physical strength, and this why women can not compete with men on the same level. If you disagree, why not explain why instead.

Now, bodybuilding is where the future female egalitarians might have a stake; they are starting to look more and more like men with transplanted female heads. Some are so close, that with a good old fashioned crew cut, a pair of briefs and just a little minor surgery the few apparent visible differences might all but disappear.
 
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