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Women, Affirmative Action, Law Enforcement
- Thread starter tjhands
- Start date
Speaking of equal access, I just ran across this piece while looking for something else. Interesting. JT
CO-ED TRAINING DAMAGES HEALTH OF WOMEN SOLDIERS
1/3/2002 10:57:38 AM
British Army Doctor Confirms Findings
A British Army doctor has confirmed that female soldiers are paying for "equal opportunities" with a much higher risk of injury than men during basic training. Writing in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, Lt. Col. Ian Gemmell noted that women’s rates of injury doubled when co-ed basic training was introduced, due to differences in strength, bone mass, and stride length. For men, the proportion of discharges caused by stress fractures and back pain remained below 1.5%. For women, however, discharges rose from 4.6% to 11.1% under the co-ed training regime. As previously reported in CMR Notes (Feb. 1999), The Commander of Britain’s largest basic training base at Pirbright, near Surrey, restored single-gender training after a one-year test. Lt. Col. Simon Vandeleur told the London Sunday Times (Feb. 8, 1999), that restoration of all-female platoons reduced women’s injury rates by 50%, and first-time pass rates increased from 50% to 70%.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002001459,00.html
London Times, Jan. 3, 2002, "Equal Opportunity Damages Health of Women Soldiers," by Nigel Hawkes
CO-ED TRAINING DAMAGES HEALTH OF WOMEN SOLDIERS
1/3/2002 10:57:38 AM
British Army Doctor Confirms Findings
A British Army doctor has confirmed that female soldiers are paying for "equal opportunities" with a much higher risk of injury than men during basic training. Writing in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, Lt. Col. Ian Gemmell noted that women’s rates of injury doubled when co-ed basic training was introduced, due to differences in strength, bone mass, and stride length. For men, the proportion of discharges caused by stress fractures and back pain remained below 1.5%. For women, however, discharges rose from 4.6% to 11.1% under the co-ed training regime. As previously reported in CMR Notes (Feb. 1999), The Commander of Britain’s largest basic training base at Pirbright, near Surrey, restored single-gender training after a one-year test. Lt. Col. Simon Vandeleur told the London Sunday Times (Feb. 8, 1999), that restoration of all-female platoons reduced women’s injury rates by 50%, and first-time pass rates increased from 50% to 70%.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002001459,00.html
London Times, Jan. 3, 2002, "Equal Opportunity Damages Health of Women Soldiers," by Nigel Hawkes
I have the EXPERIENCE of being a Navy pilot for the last 9 years. Your book is a dung heap. Our female aviators are frequently among the best pilots we have, despite their small numbers.
Were they able to fly as many combat sortes as then men during the war in Iraq? ( honestly, i do not know ) I read that some squadrons were flying 2 sorties a day.
Were they able to fly as many combat sortes as then men during the war in Iraq? ( honestly, i do not know ) I read that some squadrons were flying 2 sorties a day.
Handy
What are the per capita accident rates - as in crashes - for female versus males Navy jet fighter pilots?
Is your experience and opinion shared by every male jet fighter pilot in the Navy? Evidently not.I have the EXPERIENCE of being a Navy pilot for the last 9 years. Your book is a dung heap. Our female aviators are frequently among the best pilots we have, despite their small numbers.
What are the per capita accident rates - as in crashes - for female versus males Navy jet fighter pilots?
FrankDrebin
Moderator
What are the per capita accident rates - as in crashes - for female versus males Navy jet fighter pilots?
I hear it's pretty low because they're not allowed to have makeup OR cellphones in their fighter jets.....
LAK, my opinion on Blacks may not be shared by all other pilots, either. But that doesn't legitimize their opinion, does it?
The book you refer to was written shortly after Kara Hultgreen's F-14 crash, in the second year that females were even allowed in the program (1994). You're quoting per capita statistics from a time when there was a 200 to 1 male/female ratio - think they could get skewed at all?
The Naval Safety Center doesn't publish the sex of pilots involved in crash reports, but an informal pole among people flying jets for the last several decades reveals that no one can even think of a woman involved in jet crash in the last 5 years, at least. So, during the last 4 years of concentrated air combat, no woman has crashed a fighter. Many men have. What does that tell you?
In the last 9 years of my career, I can only think of two mishaps involving women, and both had a male copilot in the helicopter with them.
I suggest you stop quoting the work of post-Tailhook crybabies, upset that there are no longer lunchtime lingeree shows at the officer clubs. Those "stats" have been proven false by history, and the experience of those of us who actually do it for a living.
The book you refer to was written shortly after Kara Hultgreen's F-14 crash, in the second year that females were even allowed in the program (1994). You're quoting per capita statistics from a time when there was a 200 to 1 male/female ratio - think they could get skewed at all?
The Naval Safety Center doesn't publish the sex of pilots involved in crash reports, but an informal pole among people flying jets for the last several decades reveals that no one can even think of a woman involved in jet crash in the last 5 years, at least. So, during the last 4 years of concentrated air combat, no woman has crashed a fighter. Many men have. What does that tell you?
In the last 9 years of my career, I can only think of two mishaps involving women, and both had a male copilot in the helicopter with them.
I suggest you stop quoting the work of post-Tailhook crybabies, upset that there are no longer lunchtime lingeree shows at the officer clubs. Those "stats" have been proven false by history, and the experience of those of us who actually do it for a living.
This is attempting to take the high ground by using a false comparison. We are not speaking of race, we are speaking of gender. And as unpalatable for some people as it might be, men and women differ some in their physical and psychological charactaristics. To deny this is to suggest that the only difference between the sexes is physical build proportions and reproductive functions, something that I have yet to hear anyone say that I have ever known or met in person. Man or woman.LAK, my opinion on Blacks may not be shared by all other pilots, either. But that doesn't legitimize their opinion, does it?
Firstly, I can not say that we are referring to the same book. I had a look for mine, I think it went to a local bookshop the last time I sold off a small stack. But it was a few months back, and I may be able to recover it for discussion sake. Neither can I verify that is an accurate ratio of pilots, but regardless, it is the ratio of crashes that is relevent.The book you refer to was written shortly after Kara Hultgreen's F-14 crash, in the second year that females were even allowed in the program (1994). You're quoting per capita statistics from a time when there was a 200 to 1 male/female ratio - think they could get skewed at all?
The fact that now there may be a higher ratio of female pilots might produce an arguably better sample of female pilots, but I would have thought that the Navy would have been pretty rigorous in their selection process for the earliest batches of female pilots. We would assume that the selection process, testing etc would be exactly the same as for their male counterparts.
I bet they don't; and that they have been expressly forbidden from doing so.The Naval Safety Center doesn't publish the sex of pilots involved in crash reports, but an informal pole among people flying jets for the last several decades reveals that no one can even think of a woman involved in jet crash in the last 5 years, at least. So, during the last 4 years of concentrated air combat, no woman has crashed a fighter. Many men have. What does that tell you?
Informal pole? How scientific is that? And frankly I don't buy it. Even if not one has actually crashed during a combat mission I don't buy it as an overall fact. If there were any truth in it the Navy should have no problem publishing every single crash in a clear perspective. It might then perhaps lay to rest the whole issue - if it were so.
I can't think of any. All the pilots I have ever known personally who crashed were men - and one of those wasn't a crash per se (the plane basically suffered a catastrophic explosion at altitude).In the last 9 years of my career, I can only think of two mishaps involving women, and both had a male copilot in the helicopter with them.
Evidently we are not talking of the same book; the one I am familiar with was not crying over the demise of any O club cabarets.I suggest you stop quoting the work of post-Tailhook crybabies, upset that there are no longer lunchtime lingeree shows at the officer clubs.
They haven't even been documented in context - or at least published as such. Proves nothing.Those "stats" have been proven false by history, and the experience of those of us who actually do it for a living.
Handy,
Is is not a matter of calling the people you work with all liars - it is a matter of knowing how the political structure affects truth and objectivity. The Navy is a big organization, with alot of pilots. I do not happen to believe the Navy if their official rag announces that an "informal pole" declares that "no female pilots have crashed during a combat mission", and fails to address it with official crash report data, not just in that context - but all flight operations from the first training flights on up.
But speaking of calling people liars, the United States government - and in practical effect the Navy - had no trouble making the entire crew of the USS Liberty appear to be liars or mentally incompetent. Again, it is the organizational hierarchy and political structure that most often seem to like making honorable people appear to be liars. And they are often very good at perpetuating a lie if it suits their political agenda. In this case their unwillingness to put forward some real data does not inspire any confidence.
Is is not a matter of calling the people you work with all liars - it is a matter of knowing how the political structure affects truth and objectivity. The Navy is a big organization, with alot of pilots. I do not happen to believe the Navy if their official rag announces that an "informal pole" declares that "no female pilots have crashed during a combat mission", and fails to address it with official crash report data, not just in that context - but all flight operations from the first training flights on up.
But speaking of calling people liars, the United States government - and in practical effect the Navy - had no trouble making the entire crew of the USS Liberty appear to be liars or mentally incompetent. Again, it is the organizational hierarchy and political structure that most often seem to like making honorable people appear to be liars. And they are often very good at perpetuating a lie if it suits their political agenda. In this case their unwillingness to put forward some real data does not inspire any confidence.
What in the hell are you talking about??? What "rag"?
I asked several senior pilots, all members of a fairly small community, if they could think of any female mishaps. There are only a handful of fighter squadrons, even fewer carrier air wings, and they all know each other. It is an organization that is much too small to hide a mishap OR the people involved. Every mishap in my aviation community I knew the names of everyone involved in days.
I think it is REALLY obvious that you know zero about the size, structure or life in the Navy, so please stop impugning it with your ignorance. When you tell me that senior pilots aren't telling me facts, you're calling them, or me, liars - because they know about all the mishaps (there are relatively few per year).
This is your chance to get real information, rather than just regurgitate the contents of one barely remembered book. You might take advantage of that, instead of weaving a further conspiracy theory where none can exist.
I asked several senior pilots, all members of a fairly small community, if they could think of any female mishaps. There are only a handful of fighter squadrons, even fewer carrier air wings, and they all know each other. It is an organization that is much too small to hide a mishap OR the people involved. Every mishap in my aviation community I knew the names of everyone involved in days.
I think it is REALLY obvious that you know zero about the size, structure or life in the Navy, so please stop impugning it with your ignorance. When you tell me that senior pilots aren't telling me facts, you're calling them, or me, liars - because they know about all the mishaps (there are relatively few per year).
This is your chance to get real information, rather than just regurgitate the contents of one barely remembered book. You might take advantage of that, instead of weaving a further conspiracy theory where none can exist.
NSO_w/_SIG
New member
Here in MD
Prince Georges County about 4 yrs ago there was a class of fireman hired about 150. They were hired as usual based on their experience, test scores, physical fitness times ect..... They were given a date in which they were to start the training class. It was like a few weeks down the road, so these 150 new hires go and inform their current employers they found a carreer and are starting in a feww weeks, they leave their current jobs.
One day before the class was suppose to start approx. 100 of them get calls saying " o sorry there was a mistake, your are not hired after all". Ofcourse they are all enraged. Seems the county executive Wayne Curry felt that there was not enough blacks hired so he came up with this lie about how he wanted more PG residents as new hired Firefighters. Here is the thing though, they were all black and all lacking in test scores. So they fired all the orginal selections who were 95% white and replaced them with PG county residents, all black and all lower in test scores, experience ect......
Needless to say those 100 or so guys got to together and brought a class action lawsuit against PG county. They ended up winning their jobs back, although having to pay around $5000 in lawyers fees each, and Wayne Curry has since been canned.
I have to say for once justice was served here and it is too bad that stuff like this happends all the time and nothing is said and it is never challenged.
Prince Georges County about 4 yrs ago there was a class of fireman hired about 150. They were hired as usual based on their experience, test scores, physical fitness times ect..... They were given a date in which they were to start the training class. It was like a few weeks down the road, so these 150 new hires go and inform their current employers they found a carreer and are starting in a feww weeks, they leave their current jobs.
One day before the class was suppose to start approx. 100 of them get calls saying " o sorry there was a mistake, your are not hired after all". Ofcourse they are all enraged. Seems the county executive Wayne Curry felt that there was not enough blacks hired so he came up with this lie about how he wanted more PG residents as new hired Firefighters. Here is the thing though, they were all black and all lacking in test scores. So they fired all the orginal selections who were 95% white and replaced them with PG county residents, all black and all lower in test scores, experience ect......
Needless to say those 100 or so guys got to together and brought a class action lawsuit against PG county. They ended up winning their jobs back, although having to pay around $5000 in lawyers fees each, and Wayne Curry has since been canned.
I have to say for once justice was served here and it is too bad that stuff like this happends all the time and nothing is said and it is never challenged.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
There's another way to look at that situation, which is also a lesson in not burning bridges.....Why would a white guy want to work for a place where something like that is even possible. I'm sure they fired the guy as a scapegoat, not because they didn't approve of the policy. Those guys should start putting in applications at other places as soon as they possibly can. If they're smart, the'll realize I'm right now, instead of waiting 15 years to find out.
NSO_w/_SIG
New member
Frank let explain something
PG county Fire Dept. is one of the most diserable dept. in MD to work at for a real firefighter. They catch alot of fire, they are real busy. I think they were the 3rd busiest in the country last year. Now PG county has changed alot in the past 20 yrs. Most of these guys are early to mid-20's this is the job they have always wanted to do. Alot of their parents were raised in PG county back when it was a respectable place. Over the past 20 or so years it has become a real dump, crime is out of this world, PG and DC could almost be considered one in the same.
Now why should these guys give up their dream job because some of the people in charge are corupt? These guys for the most part love the job and don't deal with any of these corupt POS directly or indirectly.
PG county Fire Dept. is one of the most diserable dept. in MD to work at for a real firefighter. They catch alot of fire, they are real busy. I think they were the 3rd busiest in the country last year. Now PG county has changed alot in the past 20 yrs. Most of these guys are early to mid-20's this is the job they have always wanted to do. Alot of their parents were raised in PG county back when it was a respectable place. Over the past 20 or so years it has become a real dump, crime is out of this world, PG and DC could almost be considered one in the same.
Now why should these guys give up their dream job because some of the people in charge are corupt? These guys for the most part love the job and don't deal with any of these corupt POS directly or indirectly.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Now why should these guys give up their dream job because some of the people in charge are corupt? These guys for the most part love the job and don't deal with any of these corupt POS directly or indirectly.
Because your family and your mental and physical health should come before having fun being the "real" police, fireman, or whatever. What does it say for the organization when they would get rid of all those guys after hiring them because they wanted more black firemen? I would bet you that that was NOT the attitude of one guy.....I bet that that attitude was organizational, and if not, then I bet it soon will be. I could see sticking around if you had 15 years on the job when things "turned", but to start out as a NEW guy and STAY there after being treated like that is dumb, dumb, dumb. UNLESS, there is the possibility to pick up and leave whenever you want and take your seniority with you. Does that possibility exist here? When the race issue starts influencing things to the extent that an organization would allow what happened here to happen, it's time to run, not walk to a new job if you're a new guy and European-American. When you're a member of a group that those in power start to think of as "they", you're in trouble.
Look what happened here: The organization didn't see what this "one" guy did and make it right. They LET him do it and then took the guys back after they spent thousands of dollars on lawyers!!
Take a look at Detroit to see where you're headed in Prince Georges Co....Let me guess, Curry also capitalized on set-aside contracts to do things like award contracts to his buddies and buy buildings for the county for millions of dollars more than his pals paid for them just a year or so before?
Did the guy campaign on a promise to eliminate police brutality? Root out corruption? If he or his replacement, and leadership team is anything like the guy in Detroit, they'll be operating under a consent decree in no time...
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NSO_w/_SIG
New member
It does not have anything to do with them being "real" fireman or having fun, this is their source of income. This is a career they wanted. Besides every paid dept. in Md is in urban areas places where this kind of stuff happens or could very well happen in the future. Some would like to go to DC but you know what, it is no better there, DC the place that re-elected a former crack head mayor back into office this election year. Gimme a break. Or how about Baltimore city....... more of the same. Options are limited for these guys, if they want to be firemen in this area they are going to have to put up with stuff like this, still dosen't make it right and I still don't think they should just give in, then "they" get just what they wanted in the first place.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
It does not have anything to do with them being "real" fireman or having fun
Of course it does. You said it yourself:
PG county Fire Dept. is one of the most diserable dept. in MD to work at for a real firefighter. They catch alot of fire, they are real busy.
this is their source of income.
And my advice is to find another fire department as a source of income as soon as possible.
if they want to be firemen in this area they are going to have to put up with stuff like this, still dosen't make it right and I still don't think they should just give in, then "they" get just what they wanted in the first place.
I'm sure there are other non-ghetto areas where they could get a job or move to if necessary. But if you want to work in the ghettto, don't complain about the ghetto characteristics that go along with it. That generally means working for and under people who really would rather you not be there. If you want to fight the machine, good for you, I'll buy a ticket to your fundraiser (that's going to be my new cliche, maybe we can spread it across the land). But if you want a better quality of life, don't waste your time working for people who would allow 150 qualified European-Americans to be fired in order to make room for 150 other Americans after the fact whether they're qualified or not. I fought the machine for a few years and realized that there was a better way of life out there for me, and more importantly, my family, that didn't involve me banging my head against the wall for 25 years. Just trying to give others the benefit of my bought and paid for wisdom.
NSO_w/_SIG
New member
Frank
The point being that if you are going to be a firemen and your goal is not to sit on your ass why not be somewhere that you do exactly that, fightfire. So ok these guys can go to a Dept. somewhere and run a couple of ambulance calls a shift and probably not deal with the BS, but if that is what they are going to do I think most of them would tell you they would find another career.
Move? come on, you expect all these guys to just leave their lives behind and get up and move out of state to set an example?
Why do you want to argue with me on this? There was an injustice, it was brought to light, fought and won by the good guys. I was just offering an experience that happend here locally. I do not want to debate it any longer, you seem as though you have the same point of view as me and are just playing devils advocate.
And BTW, no, in MD most fireman in the state are volunteers, the only paid places are in populated areas, which are for the most part are ghetto, which you guessed it........ therefore not many choices for a would be firefighter here.
The point being that if you are going to be a firemen and your goal is not to sit on your ass why not be somewhere that you do exactly that, fightfire. So ok these guys can go to a Dept. somewhere and run a couple of ambulance calls a shift and probably not deal with the BS, but if that is what they are going to do I think most of them would tell you they would find another career.
Move? come on, you expect all these guys to just leave their lives behind and get up and move out of state to set an example?
Why do you want to argue with me on this? There was an injustice, it was brought to light, fought and won by the good guys. I was just offering an experience that happend here locally. I do not want to debate it any longer, you seem as though you have the same point of view as me and are just playing devils advocate.
And BTW, no, in MD most fireman in the state are volunteers, the only paid places are in populated areas, which are for the most part are ghetto, which you guessed it........ therefore not many choices for a would be firefighter here.
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FrankDrebin
Moderator
Why do you want to argue with me me on this?
Wasn't arguing, just giving advice and giving another perspective on what could be a blessing in disguise to those who had a lesson in what the leadership of the county they want to work for thinks of them. And it's only going to get worse. 25 years is a long time........
Prince Georges County about 4 yrs ago there was a class of fireman hired about 150. They were hired as usual based on their experience, test scores, physical fitness times ect..... They were given a date in which they were to start the training class. It was like a few weeks down the road, so these 150 new hires go and inform their current employers they found a carreer and are starting in a feww weeks, they leave their current jobs.
I remember in Jacksonville Florida, mid 80s.. they had public job postings for BOTH the fire and police departments, with the *SPECIFIC* words "Whites need not apply".
I remember in Jacksonville Florida, mid 80s.. they had public job postings for BOTH the fire and police departments, with the *SPECIFIC* words "Whites need not apply".