Winchester supergrade 338 winmag won't shoot. Need help please

Sounds like your gunsmith gets cash kickbacks from pushing Fusion ammo. I've tried fusion in .308 and be warned its very "hot" ammo.There is no guarantee your barrel will like the fusion ammo. Your smith should have also told you this.
 
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Jimro wrote:

You could try pressure bedding the barrel with a few business cards to see if that will "tune" the system to produce a tighter group with some of the commercial ammo you have on hand.
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Booger,

I am thinking Jimro is on to something regarding the rifle bedding. Try using aluminum duct tape to experiment with adding a pressure point underneath the barrel. Might just tell you something about the bedding.
 
That's a pretty bold claim about Fusion Ammo, it probably is pretty good but 1" out of any rifle! Good Luck, I hope he's right.
 
I don't recall if this has been mentioned previously, but Winchester's torque spec for action screws is 35 inch-lbs. I have an inch-lb torque wrench, but it tops out at 24 inch-lbs...grrrr... so I had to do the math and use a beam/needle type ft-lb wrench I have and go to just a whisker under 3 ft-lbs. I can't speculate as to how accurate the torque is, but I would say it is going to be better than German-torque... Guden-tiet!

And yeah, pretty tall claim about factory spec ammo... Depends on rifle and shooter. I have a Rem 700adl that will shoot MOA regularly with my SAAMI spec reloads of Hornady SST 130's... Full length resizing, book spec COL. That's kind of why I am a bit frustrated with my Super Grade, after partial resizing and adjusting COL I have seen very little improvement. Guess that simple little ADL spoiled me??

I do have a question for the more experienced ammo tuners out there: When adjusting COL to bring the ogive closer to the lands, I realize that at "zero" jump, pressure spikes quickly, at least as I have read in my reloading manual. Does this only occur when you get to zero?? I have no intention of taking it to zero jump, and I have brought it in from .090" to .020" and am considering trying .010". Also, I know that longer COL should reduce pressure a bit too.. Should I up the powder charge .1-.2gr as I lengthen COL? Oh, and I should note that the rounds I made to be .020" off the lands cycle out of the magazine and into the camber just fine.

Another question about pressure bedding: I see that you can experiment at the range with business cards or other suitable/similar items under the barrel at the forend. If I find that my rifle likes a little pressure, is there any reason I could not trim the excess material and leave them in there??? Or would it be foolhardy to not go about bedding the forend with bedding compound?? It is not the expense of compound, I know it's cheap... It is more a matter of the fact I have never messed with bedding anything and would rather have a bedding method I can easily reverse if I screw it up.

Forgive me if that was an ignorant question, this is the first time I have ventured into tuning a rifle this way.

I double checked the floating of my barrel.. I can easily run an index card (thicker than a dollar bill) all the way back to the receiver.

It is now hunting season here in northern NY, and I made 5 rds up just to hunt with this season. It is close enough at "minute of deer" that I am comfortable to hunt with it, but I plan to work with it more next summer to try and get it closer to the level a $1200 rifle should be... Again, I would be 100% fine with 1.5" groups at 100yds. I don't like 4"-5", while adequate to hunt with, it is just not acceptable to me.
 
The rifle I am about to talk about has very little to do with your rifle, but "pressure" bedding is seemingly making it a much more consistent shooter. I have an old mosin nagant, went to town on it, chopped, braked, stocked etc. The stock is a free-float, but comes with a piece that screws up and down inside the stock to add a pressure point. Since I have always read that free float is more accurate, I thought it to be a gimmick and thought little about it. After reading a recent review on the stock with the writer praising the adjustable pressure pad. After trying it with a substantially high adjustment "lots of pressure", it has done a good bit in terms of consistency, especially for heat induced vertical stringing. This is just a hard plastic V, that cups the barrel and pushes up, about 7 inches from the recoil lug. Not sure about business cards being a permanent solution, as I would think the paper would wear thin over time, but maybe something simple like tiny stick on sliders for the bottom of chairs or glass tabletops would work, and be easily removed. Good luck.
 
Actually, I have had very good results with Fusion Ammo. Out of all my Winchesters, Kimbers, CZ, they are one of the more accurate rounds across the calibers.
 
The only Fusion ammo I've ever tried was in my .460 magnum pistol and I have to say, I wasn't impressed.
 
TMD said:
The only Fusion ammo I've ever tried was in my .460 magnum pistol and I have to say, I wasn't impressed.
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Another proud "Flinch & Wesson" 460XVR owner ! ;) I'll bet it cost you about $50 to find out that Fusion ammo sucked. The same day I bought my 460 , I also bought a set of reloading dies....LOL
 
Another proud "Flinch & Wesson" 460XVR owner !-CENSORED--CENSORED-I'll bet it cost you about $50 to find out that Fusion ammo sucked. The same day I bought my 460 , I also bought a set of reloading dies....LOL
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Actually I picked up my 460 about six years ago and grabbed a few different boxes of ammo at the same time. Believe it or not it was reasonably priced back then. I reloaded immediately after and never shot another factory round since.
 
For what it's worth, I bought a new Win model 70 Featherweight in .30/06. Beautiful rifle! However, after braking in the barrel, I really was getting average to larger 2" groups at 100 yards. It's close to Deer season here, so I bought a few various boxes of factory ammo...expensive stuff trying to see what would shoot. None of it shot well. I have another .30/06 and a pet load that I made up years ago. My load is very stout in my other rifle and didn't want to try it in the new gun without working up to it as I hear the FN made Winchesters have tight chambers and I didn't want to risk pressure issues. When I shoot off my rest, I like to lightly hold the gun with my trigger hand and lay my left hand on the bench. I decided to hold the rifle very firmly with both hands and was very surprised that it grouped MUCH better. This is the first rifle I've ever had to put a death grip on while at the bench but hey, it works. After a few different range sessions I can say this rifle needs a firm grip. Next I decided when the hell...and tried my hand loads. It was like a different gun, my loads shoot MUCH better than the most expensive factory stuff I was trying. They're hot but the pressure isn't too bad either. So, between changing my hold and using my hand loads the rifle shrunk it's groups into less than half of what they were and I'm happy! My pet load is Nosler cases, Nosler 180 grain partition, Federal primers, and H4350 powder. Keep experimenting, I bet you solve your gun riddle.
 
Thank you for the input MJFLores.

I will certainly be working with it more but for now I'm hunting with it.

I plan to give my load recipe a little more push of IMR4350 for the next test session. I stopped at 71.5gr compressed where Hodgdon listed 72gr compressed was the limit in their testing. I did note some improvement the harder I pushed the 225gr SST's. But after reading some advice here, I will also being paying much closer attention to my form in shooting and improving it where deficiencies are noted.

If still not satisfied I am considering trying lighter bullets. Also plan to experiment with a little forend pressure as well if more load experimentation doesn't yield results.
 
Received a phone call this morning from the gun shop. They tried several different loads and the fusion did produce the best groups. Inch and a half groups at 100. That's not really what I call accurate but I guess it's good enough for hunting. Not gona rebarrel now but may look into it in the future. Trigger is on the way and I will pick up the rifle thursday.
 
That hits the proverbial pie plate at 600. My Savage doesn't do any better, with one exception. Barnes 210's do 1", so that's my varmint load.
 
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First, you probably haven't really completely free-floated the barrel. If there's only a dollar bill space, the barrel will vibrate and bounce off the channel. I like 1/16" minimum spacing, more with heavy-recoiling cartridges.

The Winchester 70 actions tend to move around in the stock unless bedded, preferably, a combination of action bedding and pillar-bedding. Only as a LAST resort would I suggest a pressure pad in the forend, but some rifles like them. Make sure it has at least 3 lbs. of uplift, preferably 5 lbs. It may give good groups then, but will be less tolerant of how the forend is rested.

The suggestion to use a lead-sled or similar rest is very good. It's hard to shoot a good group when you keep getting belted in the shoulder as you lean into the rifle.

The last thing I'd suspect is the barrel. In all my years of working on rifles and shooting them, I've never encountered a bad Winchester barrel. It's possible, but highly unlikely.
 
My Winchester .338 Win. Mag. isn't a Super Grade, but is the Stainless Classic as I was looking for an all weather rifle. The only problem is the darn thing beats me to death. The worst thing about the rifle is the very cheap injection molded piece of Tupperware that call a stock. Very flimsy forearm. That was a few years back. Fast forward to about a month ago and now the rifle sports a McMillan stock in the design similar to the Winchester Featherweights with the schnable at the tip of the forearm. Thing still kicked the unholy bejabbers out of me so I had a thicker Pachmeyr Decelerator put on the stock and a muzzle brake at the front. Kind of strange looking in a way with what appears to be a 28.5" barrel due to the brake but damned it I don't like the look. I really think it has a very cool and businesslike look to it. I still have to shoot it but cannot find a single box of Winchester brand .338 mag ammo in town. :confused: I found one box of some pricey premium ammo but I'm not about to pay almost $75 for one box of army. The cheaper silver box ammo will do just fine for my purposes of taking case head and pressure ring measurements. I have more than enough brass and can just do a load work up but would prefer to get those measurements first.
Regarding accuracy, all I can say is in the Tupperware stock accuracy was zilch, nada and none. I'll admit that I may have also flinched a bit after the first couple of shots but I shoot guns a lot bigger and heavier than that .338 and they didn't hurt me light the .338.
I'll follow up after I get to shoot it a bit with some factory ammo.
Paul B.
 
Thanks for the info guys. The timney trigger will b n today and they said the bedding of the action was superb from the factory. A different guy is gona shoot the gun that is used to shooting 338 lapuas and 50 Cal barrets. Honestly this rifle has alot of shove but no sharp pain on the shoulder. I have shot it in a led sled and also a leather vice. I have several rifles that hurt to shoot, this one doesnt. My wife videos me shooting so I can see if there are any flaws in my abilities. I'm not a flincher. I realized long ago that it's only a half second of boom and recoil. It doesn't hurt. I grew up shooting trap and skeet with a 5 1/2 lb 20 gauge. I'd rather shoot 3 times concentrated than 10 times flinching. Buy good optics and don't shoot uphill and the scope will never hurt you. If you catch yourself flinching, get set on the rifle; close your eyes and count to 3; then start concentrating on feeling the trigger. After the gun scared the fudge out of you, you just forgot the feel of the trigger. Do it all over again and when you realize that the gun never hurt you and you shot it twice with your eyes closed you will no longer be scared of it.
 
so the gun shop called and stated rifle is shooting 1.5"? was anything done to the rifle? or is this the same configuration since your original post? just wondering if a problem was solved or if it just ended up being the shooter. not giving you grief if that's the case, the largest rifle I have shot is 30-06's, and although I can mange decent groups, it's not pleasant from the lightweight Mossberg Patriot's polymer stock, wonderful from a Garand though. I could only imagine I would need a good bit of practice to get comfy with a 338mag.

I was just curious since you were claiming 4" to over 8" groups and now confirmed at 1.5", what was the verdict? were any problems addressed with the mounts/bedding etc? lapping or anything?

okay, I see it here, sorry
First thing they did was put leupold mark 4 rings. Ordered a new vx3 scope
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I wish they had tried shooting it before swapping rings to single out if their was actually an issue
 
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Hmm.... I have Leupold 2-piece bases and dovetail rings... I too would like to have known how they shot it with the old scope, rings and bases setup.

I am pretty confident that my scope is fine. It worked quite well on 2 other 30-06 rifles, one being a shorter barreled Savage and the other a Remmy 700 CDL.
 
Sorry I wasn't clear on the 1.5 inch group. That was with the 225 grain fusions. They tried the 200 grain sst's because that's what I truly want to shoot out of the rifle but they had same results as me. Nothing that really could be considered a group at 100 yards. He said he thinks the gun may can do better but the 2 1/2 lb trigger pull was too much for him. He's used to 6 ounce triggers. He said he caught his self tensing up before the trigger broke. He also tried the 200 grain power points but only slightly better results than the sst's. Around 4 inches. Maybe this rifle is just a real picky eater but I've never seen that big of a difference in factory loads at 100 yards. I'm not gona try the 250 grain bullets because that puts the recoil at a level I'm not gona tolerate well. The 300 remington ultra mag I owned for a week was past my level so I'm gona stay shy of the heavy loads for the 338 winmag.
 
Well, I have a little update to share...I feel like an idiot and you all are free to have a laugh at me for it... Here goes


So I was in the woods with my Super Grade today and as I often do, I was fiddling with my rifle a little bit.. I shouldered the rifle and aimed through the scope at a distant tree to have a look and kind of scope the area. I turned the eyepiece (proper nomenclature??) to adjust and noticed that the eyepiece was loose and wiggled!! So, I lowered the rifle and had a look, sure enough the whole dang eyepiece wiggled. Shouldered it again, steadied it on my knee and wiggled the eyepiece again while looking through the scope at that same tree and the crosshairs moved their point of aim along with the wiggle of the eyepiece. It was then I noticed that my scope has a locking ring that is supposed to be threaded up against the eyepiece to lock it in place. Once I did that the eyepiece is firmly set and no longer wiggles. I am cautiously optimistic that this is the reason I was getting erratic shot groups as I am sure that the eyepiece was wiggling around during recoil causing shifts in my point of aim. It explains why scope adjustments at times would show no change, and at other times show significantly more change than they should have. It also explains why my ammo I made to be tuned to my rifle chamber didn't yield significantly improved results.

This never dawned on me because the only other scope I own is the only other scope I have experience with and it does not have this locking ring for the eyepiece. Only part of the eyepiece turns on that scope where this scope on the Super Grade the entire eyepiece turns.

Now tomorrow I am going to fire the rifle again and see if the groups tighten up now that the eyepiece won't be wiggling around. I do not plan to hunt with this rifle now until I fire it again as I expect I will need to make some adjustments to dial in the zero.



Wish me luck! :)
 
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