Will you let him do it?

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FOR GOD'S SAKE'S, WHY WOULD ANYONE
WANT TO KILL A LEO? AFTER ALL, THEY
ARE THERE TO "PROTECT AND SERVE". I
HAVE BEEN IN LE FOR MANY YEARS; ONLY
ONCE HAVE I HAD TO DRAW MY WEAPON AND
THAT WAS BECAUSE I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY
LIFE. IN OTHER WORD'S I HAD REASON TO
BELIEVE THE PERP HAD A GUN. NEEDLESS
TO SAY NEITHER ONE OF US GOT SHOT; THE
PERP WAS ARRESTED BY ME AND TRANSPORTED
TO THE CJ. A HAPPY ENDING TO A REAL LIFE
EVENT.



------------------
Ala Dan
 
As ever, the interesting and the occasionally worrying.

Stdalire as I recall you have something of a problem with one or some of your LEO's over there in the Phillipines. If you're looking for opinions in this forum that would recommend going toe to toe with an officer (bad or otherwise) over your right to hang on to your weapon I would hope and expect that the views you receive will be very much to the contrary. The piece about cops not wanting to give you a ticket when they discover you have a gun is a) very common and b) very obvious. The police aren't stupid when it comes to their own personal safety, the guy knows that you are acting legally so he can't take the gun off you for more than a check up call. Maybe you're really a crazy just waiting to see what your 11 Golden Sabres can do to a cops head, and maybe you're not, but when he gives you that gun back he's not about to risk his life for the sake of some 2 bit speeding ticket, so not only does he let you off with a warning but he also chats with you about holsters and training or the terrible loss of bullet velocity in winter temperatures and air densities. I imagined myself in the same position and yes, I'm big enough to admit I'd do the same thing in the same situation.

I like the angle about the them and us attitude being encouraged by the use of LEO only stamps on hi-cap mags and the restriction of certain cartridges to LEO only, it's a good point and if it will get me some of the latest Ranger Talons and a factory 13 round mag for a P229 .357 Sig then I'm with you. Remember, 86% of all LEO's questioned supported private ownership of firearms for non-felons.

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Mike H
 
stdalire,



You should be able to carry a gun at your waist without your gun printing AT ALL. You are going to draw a lot of unnecessary attention to your gun if you don't make that a priority. Also, with practice, you should be able to draw your gun from that holster and fire in one second or less. Yes, you CAN accomplish concealability and a fast draw.

I am small framed (5'9"/132lbs.) and can easily achieve both of these things with my Kahr K40. Plus, a pocket holster, if your gun is small enough, is even quicker because you can already have your hand on it without anybody noticing.

David
 
Don't resist any LEO (Law Enforcement Officer), even if they are in the wrong, if it involves firearms (on your person or pointed at you!). Comply with all of his/her requests. Just don't sign anything (except a traffic ticket).
Then later, get witnesses and file a complaint with the right officials, and take it to court if necessary.
At best, resistance will get you into more trouble with the law for resisting an officer, or at worst get you a bullet in your thorax or cranium.



[This message has been edited by Sambonator (edited October 07, 1999).]
 
There is a term for what happens when someone doesn't do what the nice police officer tells them while at gun point. It is called "Suicide by cop".

While I would not DROP my weapon, I would very calmy, slowly and politely LAY it down, all the while explaining to the nice officer that dopped guns have a way of going off....

At that point, he had better have REAL good probable cause for drawing a weapon on me. If not, when the legal dust settles, you can bet that I would be a bit richer....

------------------
Mossyrock
I respect your right to your own opinions and beliefs
and will fight to the death to defend your right to them
regardless of how uninformed and ignorant they may be.
 
Greetings to All Cop Friends and Civilians alike:

Firstly – I consider this only for the sake of discussion not to agitate some kind of misunderstanding. In fact my intention from you is to learn.

 I am having a coffee while I am Scanning TFL. I am glad to hear different opinions:

 The Sig Man: You are correct some are not well trained and we need to be in good always in front of our brother cops to avoid of being mistaken.

 Hal: You, me and others might be in one opinion that everybody's life is very much treasured and every one in our respective families want us to be always with them, the same as the law enforcers. There is nothing different as to one’s life value.

 DWM/David: Your advises to carry concealed gun is very much appreciated. I carry a full size .45 1911 that is why almost of the time I used my clutch bag, but I prefer to tuck on my waist. I won’t consider small calibre for a day to day carry gun.

 Sambonator: It depends when do I resist and not, I have to consider also to the place, time and size up the looks and numbers of cops who freeze me for check up. To check point yes, I have myself being checked that is the purpose for a check point area. But just walking in the street and be checked by a lone cop it looks like it is hard for me. Also, I noticed that it looks like there is big difference as to the value of personality of a cop and a civilians life to some opinions.

 I forgot to mention, I need to add also if how about the cop is not in uniform but declare himself he is a cop. I doubt if any one will yield if being checked by a cop who is not in uniform because of fear of being harassed, the true identity of the person or whatsoever.

 Mike H: My topic has nothing to do of what had happened to me in the Philippines (re: previous post). Which you might think I am an anti-cop. I am not after a 100% positive response to justify me or in favor of me but only what are the ideas of the other people who might encounter such thing, anyway the person concerned will received all the consequences whatever it is. Not only me or someone else out there who might came across to this situation – so everyone has different opinion, either for the detriment or advantages of the reader or practitioner.

 Like when I was asked by BIG DAVE, if the situation will gonna happen in Phils or USA. I said in Philippines and I said also, “so, it is different in US that when a cop freeze any one he must completely yield himself no matter what the time, situation, or environment as long as he is a true cop”. I did not go against that opinion. I read, analyze and pick up what is beneficial to me.

 Lets put this way, there are instances cops or other law enforcer are being checked also by fellow officers and many incidents that the former don't like to be checked but only identify themselves or show the documents.

 If I am not mistaken – I read in one of US Gun Site School for safety that once your gun is with you, it should never get away from you.

*** Last year I was visited by a SWAT team in my house to checked if my firearms are licensed and with permit to carry as one envious neighbor belongs to the Barrio Self Defense Force suspected me of carrying guns without license and reported to the Police Station. SWAT team knocked at my door even without search warrant but I let them in and talk to them nicely. I was asked all the documents and they cannot find faults to me, but still they invited me to their Police station, asking me questions why I owned high caliber pistols when in fact I am a civilian. I was only released of questioning when my Gun Club President and my other co members Police Colonels called their officer that I am a member of the group.***
How would you call this incident. The parting word we had with the investigator is. “Why I did not tell them in the first place that I am also a gun club member”. To my mind why should I tell them, I might be misunderstood that I am bragging. So I just go with them casually. Note. The SWAT team told me that the person from our place called them, so they responded. In this incident I am showing how cool I am in dealing such things like this.

Another thing: I feel very afraid of drawing my gun by myself to hand it over to a police man as - it is a good reason for a cop to shoot a person - why? just a mere drawing of agun by the suspect can be already enough as ground to say he tried to fight the policemam. So it depends on the situation, time, and environment.


[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited October 09, 1999).]
 
About the Philippines, I know nothing but
in the USA, I take it the scenario is
that you are spotted carrying a weapon
and you are going to refuse to obey
commands that are given to you by
an LEO. They will not tell you to reach for
the weapon most likely - they will tell you
not to move. If you move, you will be shot.
They will get the weapon.

If the gun is out for some reason and they
tell you to drop it. DROP IT. If you try
to put it down slowly, you might be shot.
Polce training films show how some putting
down the gun quickly turns and shoots at them.
Just drop it and forget about the cost of
your gun. It's like guys in training exercises who bitch about dropping their
mags on the ground when reloading because
it's expensive.

Most guns won't go off if dropped. If you have
to drop it - you might turn it flat and
drop it - probably little damage will result.

This thread sounds like the how to die
instruction manual. My data base for this
post - several high end courses and cop
friends.


glenn http://www.enconnect.net/cyberguns
 
AlaDan: None would like to kill a LEO. If someone would do that, as if he already declare war to the whole Police Department. Kill a Criminal but not a "Peace Officer".

Killing is not the purpose of the post, but how to preserve both lives of A & B.

Thanks.
 
Stdalire:

I truly don't understand what you are saying
unless it refers to very specific circumstances in your country.

In the USA, if an officer orders you not
to move and then takes legitimate action
to secure your weapon - you face death
or if you survive, extreme legal sanctions.

It would take highly unusual circumstances
entailing some illegal actions by the
LEO or some other highly bizarre situation
to not comply.

You say you are worried about protecting
A and B. What do you mean - that if you
give up your weapon, the cop is going
to shoot you? He or she already has the drop
on you.

It sounds like you are searching for a reason
to disobey and get into a fight.

Good way to die.

While one could devise some event in which
you would not obey - the odds are extremely
in your favor if you just go along.

If this is not the case outside of the USA,
then our opinions are irrelevant to you.
 
From the initial scenario:

Tell him your armed and where it is. If your permitted, tell him where it is. Be very still and don't move your hands (except maybe away from your body). He should probably then frisk you. I suppose that an *sshole might tackle you and take you to the ground.

Do the same thing if already being frisked.

Do not try to first hand him your piece or your permit.

I don't trust or like LE. But you get along alot better with LE and LEOs with sugar instead of vinegar.

Even in a case where a rogue cop is adding to his personal firearm collection (usually done in the US through the evidence room [e.g., last Lubbock Co TX sheriff's race]) or give you a beating, it is better to comply immediately for long term success (sue the b*stards).
 
Greetings Glenn:

I had emphasized the supposed scenario from the start of my post and to my other post replies. But you said you don't understand me.

The rest can grasp and answered vividly to my questions only with different propositions as every one is entitled to their own opinions how to deal with the problem. Either the situation will happen in Phils or in USA there is similarities or dissimilarities to deal with as I see now with the various reactions.

In your 1st post of Oct 09, answered well the questions and you give your own opinion whereas your 2nd post --- you don't truly understand anymore. DWM,The Sigman,Sambonator, Hal and Prichard answered very well the questions only with different views how to deal with it.

Looking at the different opinions from different professions i.e. LE,Military, Civilians are not the same also and note these are all from USA only in different states, because we have different ways of dealing a situation.

Glenn: Honestly, I always avoid trouble but I don't like also being underdog or be in a situation that I'll be shot or killed because of a mere mistake of being checked.

The thruth is, I don't trust such cop who checked a person for firearm who is just walking on the street without comitting any crime or a felony. Cases like this is very rare as good cop never check a person in the street for firearms.

If I am a cop and I am alone and I notice a person with a firearm I don't dare to check it, if legally carried or not if the person is not actually committing a crime or I have no knowledge as to his identity. Why? because he might be a cop also, a law enforcer or gov't agent -- how about if he immediately draw his gun also, then there is an an exchange of fire because of personal ego. Many incident like this that had happened. To sum up, my purpose is not to search for reasons to disobey a cop and get into a fight. I treasured everything I have, first my life and my family. Thus I don't want to gamble my life for such actions but I must always be in advantage position. The court will be the last arbiter who is right and not after all.

By the way, (A) means to the person frisked and (B) refers to the Police Officer.

"People who are peaceful resort to argumentation rather than to violence".

Thanks

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited October 11, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited October 12, 1999).]
 
Carrying concealed, esp. in Texas, means
that you are not detected.

However, if you are detected by a law
enforcement officer - and they ask you
to stop - are you saying you would
resist them?

Are you saying that a police officer seeing
an uncovered weapon (in a non-open carry
state) should not inquire as to the weapon.

You state if you challenge this person, there
will be an exchange of gun fire. Huh?

Why? If I am challenged by a uniformed law
officer - why would there be a shoot out?

If they are plain clothes - the officer
is supposed to identify themselves.

Are police not supposed to challenge criminals?

I just don't get your point.

Will you or won't you comply with a police
officer? In the USA - not to do so is
not sensible.
 
Always remember! They are the kings. They have the power to make many things legit for themselve. We suppose to obey them eventhough something doesn't make a sense. We just have to take their sarcasms and insults when they pull you over. We have to make them happy by just obeying them. Also, judges(Super King)don't give damn about you, they are always the kings' side unless you have lots of money to buy a expensive lawyer. They are the people who don't have to care about their misbehavior; unless they are on the FOX "COPS". Again, they are the kings.....Welcome to "Cop's R us"..."where cop can be a king".

[This message has been edited by The Sig Man (edited October 12, 1999).]
 
- I just want to air my views how a person react when he is in danger. I only know few things how to react between a life and death situation.

1st – To see if I can subdue the attacker no matter who he is, to get even.
2nd – To apply such tactics to neutralize him.
3rd – To take cover as fast as I could if I can.
4th- To run if I have still enough time
***
- Psychologically speaking – if a person is being freeze, pointed with a gun and being shouted will rattle a person and makes him creates unnecessary movements that he is not really intending to do, and makes him think what may happen to him. And these movements will cause a cop to misinterpret and will shoot for survival.

- THE SAME THING WHEN BAD GUYS WILL CONDUCT A HOLD UPS INSIDE A BUS AND IT SO HAPPEN THAT THERE IS POLICE INSIDE, THE MINUTE THE BAD GUY DECLARE THEIR INTENTION THE COP WILL BE RATTLED ALSO AND DRAW HIS GUN, BUT IF HE WAS NOTICED BY THE BAD GUYS HE WILL BE SHOT ON THE SPOT. MANY THINGS HAPPENED LIKE THIS ONE.

- That’s why I said previously, it depends on the time, situation, place, numbers, true identity, and how the checker conduct the checking, if he is polite, it is a place where there is legal checkpoint, or I determined that my life is not in danger then I will use my own judgement if I follow or not.
***
- The truth is if any body having checked will have the tendency either to fight back or nervously follow everything he was told to do so. Either you did follow or not if you’ve been shot – their reason is always justified.
***
- Also, if someone is being freeze in an isolated areas, he has the thinking that he will be harassed. Except if you are told to stop because you violated a traffic signal or laws and when you were ask to show your papers you were notice by the cop that you are carrying a gun so the cause of your being checked is not the gun but a traffic violation. The checking of your gun is incidental only. But it is different if Uniformed, Plainclothes or anybody else will immediately freeze you for gun checking. There are big shots (well to do family or having high positions) who don’t just yield themselves for firearms check-up. Let us not only talking the average Joe but take all kinds of personalities into account.
***
- Glenn: I am amenable that Police should challenge every kind of criminals, but being a policeman we must know how to determine the looks, the posture, the time and places where criminals are roaming around, to avoid hurting ones honor, prevents one’s hatred and anger of being manhandled or avoid more bloody confrontation. No one is so sure who will received a death blow.

The sig man: you are mentioning important reminders to digest.

Thank you for the various reactions to learn from.

(I can disposed all weapons I can to preserve my life,
But most of it, discipline to conquer my anger is my best weapon.)
 
A few thoughts, some perhaps repetitive of others earlier:

1. Remember Rule #1 of Ideas - If it gets you killed, it's a bad idea. Resisting an armed cop in a situation where he is attempting to remove a weapon has a very high risk of mortality anywhere, regardless of any legal implications.

2. Avoid a Criminal Prosecution - Assuming you survive physically, with or without a permit, you may well be prosecuted for some crime which goes under different names in different jurisdictions but boils down to you didn't do what the cop said.

The U.S. Supreme Court has over the last several years consistently indicated that in automobile stops, where most of these encounters are likely to occur, the cop has a right to do a broad range of things for his own safety, including asking drivers and passengers to get out of the car, and checking the immediate area of the person stopped for weapons.

3. Don't Bet The Farm On A Civil Action Later - If you get out alive and aren't arrested, but end up pissed off, you might say "hey, I'm going to sue that bastard for false arrest or invasion of privacy or violation of my bodily integrity or something."

The general rule is, yes, a cop needs a warrant and/or probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed to arrest you or search you.

But there are lots of exceptions to this, particularly in cars or boats, which the Supreme Court has basically said present "exigent circumstances."

Still the cop has no right just to pull you over to hassle you, or to stop you on the street and even ask you for a name and id. You are a citizen of a free country.

Now, the BUT... But, even without probable cause to believe you have committed a crime, under Terry v. Ohio, the Supreme Court has upheld what is known as a "Terry Stop." In essence this is a requirement that you stop and permit the cop to pat you down for purposes of determining if a weapon is present.

The prerequisite here is somewhat lower than "probable cause" The cop merely needs to establish (primarily from their own testimony) that they had a reasonable ground to believe that criminal activity was afoot.

In other words, you made a furtive gesture in a neighborhood believed to be an area where drugs were sold, or after a robbery was reported five blocks away, or whatever.

4. BEST APPROACH - Although it has not happened to me yet, I agree with the suggestions, for instance in an automobile stop, to keep your hands plainly visible to the cop and tell them FIRST that you have a permit, and SECOND that you have a weapon ALL THE WHILE KEEPING YOUR HANDS CONSPICUOUSLY IN THE COPS PLAIN VIEW. Let him direct you what to do after you have done everything possible to eliminate the chance of surprising him.

5. Alternatives. I can't imagine any circumstances in which I would try to resist and use the weapon to protect my right to carry short of the cop actually shooting at(and missing, otherwise it's moot) me. And then, should I prevail, I would SH*T bullets trying to think how I would ever convince somebody that the thing went down the way I said it did. Carry your passport and head for the airport.
 
stdalire,

We live in different worlds.

You might be better served to discuss these types of questions with your friends in your homeland.

Dave
 
 Big Dave: Thank you for your reminder. I thought everyone is welcome to present his/her opinion in this forum even with different perspective than the others because we are living in different environment, governed by different laws and it's good to make comparison.

 If my topic will not fit one's locality then it could be just ignored or not answered or perhaps to be deleted, so that I may know where I stand for.

 Having one to write and air his views hereon from different place/world should be considered as basis of comparison. Isn't it, if we travel we see things around us that purely peculiar to our own. In that way we can compare.

 Anyway Big Dave, thanks again for the reminder.

 Abruzzi, I highly appreciate your illustration in legal parlance, when and what to do and how to deal a situation.

 I am learning from everyone of you, not only about the particular topic but how you deal with people.

 The Americans knows more about the Filipinos, and the same thing, the Filipinos knows more about the Americans, in History.

 "If we talk the truth we gain enemies, if we play politics we will be appreciated".

 I remember a JOKE again which the dictionary define but cannot explain that, a Criminal is: A guy no different from the rest of us except that he got caught.

Thanks
 
It is a wise thing to listen to an officers instructions. An officer does not have to wait until you point the gun at him to defend himself. Folks, it is pretty simple. An officer is putting in his time to get a paycheck. He watches the ballgames, maybe a beer or two, just a regular guy or gal. He's your next door neighbor, or possibly a relative. Officers for the most part don't wish to pull their gun-period!
LEOS want to do their tour and go home. If you are an honest citizen you really don't have a problem. Granted that some officers are jerks but hey...welcome to reality. We all know jerks in every line of work. Please do not do something foolish and put your life in danger. If and when an officer instructs you to do something, while the officer feels he or she is in a possibly life threatening situation, please comply.
The officer does not want to shoot you or be shot by you! Honest citizen?...yes!...then what is the problem?

CAR STOP
1-Pull off the road completely and put hazards on.
2-Roll down drivers side window
3-Stay buckled and do not attemt to leave car.
4-Take keys from ignition and put them on dash.
5-If dark out put on domelight.
6-Put hands in plain sight with palms turned up. Ask other adult passengers to keep hands where they may be seen.
7-Remain calm and respond politely.
8-Please tell the officer that you are armed
if you have a firearm with you on your person or within easy access.

If you are stopped on the street do not make any sudden moves and await instructions.

Remember that LEOS are people just like you. As we are all good citizens we see law enforcement as the good guys. Like everyone else most LEOS respond favorably to a polite cooperative attitude.
Remember it's the bad guys who don't like LEOS.
 
Stdalire,

I apologize if my post was snappy.

The scenarios that you have raised are potentially lethal. Thus, I do not think that it is prudent to rely on the well intended advice of others who may not have a complete understanding of your situation in the Philippines.

It is my opinion that you would be better served with the advice of a local attorney or other expert who is knowledgeable about the laws and your particular situation.

Take care,

Dave
 
Dave: No need an apology, I appreciate all negative and positive comments.

It will shape me also being a person and remind me what are my mistakes too in dealing a situation. It is common to human behaviour having its own assessment to his environment. We have different level of education and training so it can be expressed in our opinions, and it is good thing to learn from.

Once again, thank you so much for all your views.

Sonny
 
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