Will Jacketed Bullets Clean Lead

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If you read Clark's post number 33, that's about all you need to know. Clark used to blow up guns as part of his engineering profession, so he's seen about all there is to see as far as damaging events go.

The Cast Boolits forum has a lot of interesting stuff, though, so you can read other thoughts if you like. Just be aware that no matter how well anyone claims it works, you are raising pressure. As Mr. Guffey asked, how fast to you really think a heavy, dense material like lead can be flowed or scraped out of the way before the energy and pressure requirement become extraordinary? It's inevitable that you hit a point where the bullet just rides over it.

It might not be intuitively obvious, but high speed dynamics and slow speed behavior often result in very different interactions between objects. In this case, you can scrub with a Chore Boy or the Frontier material wrapped around a brush and say "that didn't take much effort", and you'd be right because your arm isn't trying to do it in a millisecond. But in that shorter time frame the viscosity of the lead will present terrific resistance to flow. It's analogous the magician yanking a table cloth out from under dishware without disturbing it appreciably. The lead is the dishware and the gun bore is the table top and the cleaning instrument the table cloth. Go slow with the cleaning instrument and the dishware all comes off the table. Go fast and it stays put while the tablecloth slips against it.
 
Does Big 45 work as good as Chore Boy?
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I have no experience with the product.

But after reading their description of the material, I would be hesitant to use it without testing on something that was A) not very important to me; and B) made with soft materials (like some cheap, old .22 rifles; or the seemingly dead-soft stainless of my Marlin 882); so I could judge its performance without risking expensive damage.


Just sort of thinking out loud here...
I would probably start with my shotguns, to see how well it removed plastic and lead fouling and whether or not it left tell-tale scrapes in the polished smooth bores.
Then I might move on to something like my Springfield model 56 (.22 LR), in the bore and on the rusty finish. If that went well, I would consider seeing what it did to the Marlin 882's stainless steel.
At that point, I would have a pretty good idea of whether or not I wanted to shove it down the barrel of my .44s, .444s, 9mm, .35 Whelen, etc...



The product has been on the market for about 50 years. As such, I have to ask myself: Shouldn't I have heard about it before now, if it works as well as they claim?
 
Well maybe I am just lucky. I regularly shoot out leading with jacketed bullets. I have not blown or damaged any barrels. These are the following calibers I remove fouling by ending the day with jacketed bullets: 32 S&W Long, 9mm, 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 ACP, 45 LC. I purchased some cheap 32 S&W Long ammunition that leaded the barrel so badly, I could not see rifling!. It must have taken 24 to 32 rounds of my jacketed reloads, but, the leading was blown out the muzzle. This is in a pre WW2 S&W M31 which may or may not been heat treated.

I can't explain why someone's Ruger rifle blew, but my Marlin 1894 barrel is still in great shape.

Last year I started shooting Bullseye Pistol and I have been using the lightest loads I can develop which also function the pistol. I have been oiling my 45 ACP rounds in the magazine. I take my oil bottle and dribble several drops over the top cartridge and a drop through each peep hole on the magazine side. This is messy as heck but it does break the friction between case and chamber and increases function reliability for low pressure rounds. What I am noticing, besides an oil plume out the barrel, is an unusually clean barrel interior at the end of the day. There is no leading in the throat, no leading in the barrel. I have examined the barrel between relays and the interior is obviously oily. When I clean the thing all I have to do is push a patch saturated with solvent down the barrel. I don't need to use a brush. I notice no leading with my 22 LR match ammunition and those rounds, both the cases and bullets are covered in grease.

I may experiment in the future with oiling or greasing cast bullets in the 357 or 44 mag, as full velocity rounds with cast bullets cause leading. But overall, messing with grease or oil is messy and it is just cleaner and easier to shoot the lead out with jacketed bullets.
 
cracked RH barrel from shooting over lead???

back in the 80's I too was told shooting some jackets after the lead would help clean it out. I routinely did this with my 44 mag Redhawk by firing some expensive ($18.75/50 rounds) of stout factory Federal 180 gr ammo after having been blasting away with some mildly loaded cast bullets over Unique (got no records of what I was doing back then).

After approximately a year of doing this, in 1983 or 1984 I was traipsing across a guys property in southeast Ohio (almost WVA) and stopped to chat. The property owner who was a metallurgist or something from one of the steel mills asked to see my fine looking SS 44 mag revolver. He didn't have it in his hands for only a few seconds and says, "this barrel is cracked."

These cracks (mid-barrel 1/2" into the beginning of the roll stamp marks) were really tiny and looked more like super fine scuff marks to me. Well I sent it back to Ruger and sure enough it came back with a new barrel (minus any tiny cracks or documentation admitting to a barrel replacement).

I can't prove it, but I truly believe at some time I had fired some jacketed rounds behind a bunch of lead and damaged that barrel.

The short of it, there ain't no way I'm ever going to shoot jacketed bullets through a barrel with any signs of lead. Besides, knowing what I think I know today, never mix n match cast and copper shooting (residual copper fouling is a lead magnet).
 
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I think there may be a whole bunch of ill fitting lead bullets out there. About all I shoot out of my handguns these days is cast bullets and I never....well maybe once in a blue moon....have any lead problem. If there is any, it ain't no worse than a copper fouled barrel.

The shinier that bore, the less fouling (copper or lead) there is.

I do not do anything what so ever with what is called "hard cast". I like my general bullets at BHN 8 and for my bigger bores I go up to a 10-12 but that's it. I can get 1350 fps or there 'bouts with the 357 and 44s without a problemo. In the 500, I usually hold it down to around 1300-1350 fps, but I shoot the heavy ones in it.


For revolvers, measure the cylinder throat and make them barely fit and they all shoot great. The autos usually are 0.001" or they won't fit in the chamber.

I routinely run a wad of Chore Boy thru when cleaning.
 
Personally I don't believe it's really effective - but if it is at all I think it's more likely the hot flame behind the jacketed bullet vaporizing the lead rather than the bullet pushing anything out. If fouling was heavy I can absolutely see it raising pressures significantly - and one might get away with that dozens or even hundreds of times before suddenly they don't. When I shot commercially cast bullets I had to deal with it, which I found is very easy with the LLR or Chore Boy method; now that I cast and lube my own I haven't had to use either technique for several years (except on other peoples guns).
 
I just cleaned a rifle out after a whole lot of years. It's an old lever.. I have probably but only a few hundred through it, and at no point have I ever found fouling. A swap every session, and after all of these years, no build-up. About the only way to keep lead out of the barrel is constant cleaning, because any patch of roughness will just drag more off, and you just can't wipe it out.

The only way to remove a thick layer of plated on led I s to scrape it off. Penetrating solvents can help. The chore boy and other suggestions work because the hard surfaces scrape it away in tiny bits.

I don't know why this thread reminds me of my old coach. He suggested that we could prevent athletes foot by peeling on our feet in the shower. I never managed to understand him.
 
Well maybe I am just lucky. I regularly shoot out leading with jacketed bullets.
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Maybe you are.

Clark provided an example on this thread. Here's another one.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4351926&postcount=14

"I've had people come in with ringed barrels after shooting lead out, who told me that they'd been shooting the lead out for many years with no problem. Trouble is, all it takes is just a little TOO much lead. The shooter fires a new load, or fires a little more than they usually do, and the bore bulges or rings.

While you can get away with this for a long time, all it takes to destroy a good barrel is that one time where there's just a LITTLE more leading than usual.
Over the years I saw a LOT of bulged and ringed gun barrels, and people usually ascribe it to a stuck bullet or otherwise blocked barrel. In a great many cases, it was actually shooting jacketed bullets after lead."​

Allan Jones, (20 years with CCI Speer during which he held the positions: Head Ballistician, Technical Specialist, Manager Technical Publications, CCI-Speer Operations, Author and Editor of Speer Reloading Manuals 12-14.
16 years experience as a forensic firearms examiner in the Dallas County (Texas) Crime Lab.), claims to have seen several guns damaged this way.

In the February 2010 issue of Shooting Times, he writes that shooting jacketed bullets down a leaded bore is "A Big 'No-No'". The article is in the "Going Ballistic" Column and is entitled: "The Lowdown on Lead Fouling". The applicable text is quoted below.

"How many times have you thought it easier to shoot the lead out with a jacketed bullet? Well, don't even think about it. In extreme cases, this can cause irreparable damage. I've seen revolver barrel throats deformed and thin-walled barrels bulged. Either means a new barrel."​

Beretta warns against the practice in their pistol manuals. The exact quote is: "DO NOT ever shoot cartridges with jacketed bullets through a barrel previously fired with lead bullets before the bore is thoroughly deleaded."

Some years ago, a guy posted one of the forums about putting 50 rounds of lead ammo through a pistol and then having it blow when he shot a jacketed round through it to clean out the lead. Wish I could find that link but I've not been able to.

If the gun doesn't lead badly it's not likely to be an issue. But that doesn't mean it CAN'T be an issue. The practice can certainly cause damage if a shooter's luck runs out.
 
I only did the jacket bullet one time and did not do after that.Because if you keep on getting leading you have a real problem of what you are doing.i do not get anymore factory lead load rounds anymore for my 44 after what have happened that one time.I cast all my own booilts now and I try to match the BHN to the FPS that the max on the data in the books say and go from there.I am on the Cast Boolit forum also and also on the Cast Bullet one also. There is alot of information on there for anyone that wants to do cast boolits.Also there is group buys on molds too.But there is some that sell the ones that is done up already to load.
 
Again, I shoot jacketed first then lead. Then there is that part about having more than one complete slide for a SA pistol. Shoot lead then change slides.

Then there are those that are so far into reloading they have decided on a diameter for a bullet with total disregard for the thickness of lead in the barrel.

Again, I shoot jacketed first then lead.

F. Guffey
 
Well maybe I am just lucky. I regularly shoot out leading with jacketed bullets.
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Maybe you are.

Clark provided an example on this thread. Here's another one.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....6&postcount=14

"I've had people come in with ringed barrels after shooting lead out, who told me that they'd been shooting the lead out for many years with no problem. Trouble is, all it takes is just a little TOO much lead. The shooter fires a new load, or fires a little more than they usually do, and the bore bulges or rings.

If the gun doesn't lead badly it's not likely to be an issue. But that doesn't mean it CAN'T be an issue. The practice can certainly cause damage if a shooter's luck runs out.
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I appreciate the warning. I am going to continue my practice of shooting the lead out with jacketed and if I have a burst barrel, busted forcing cone, etc, I will tell all what a fool I have been.

I seldom shoot full magnum loads, at least those which used to be magnum, and are now, beyond reloading manual recommendations, so maybe that is why with good barrel materials and medium pressure loads, I have not seen a problem. I regularly shoot all my pistols with jacketed before packing them in their cases for the trip home. I have been doing this for decades and not seen any issues. Maybe the material in my barrels is good, no seams or inclusions.

As for the shooter who had a Ruger single action where the barrel was cracked at the roll marks. Roll marked letters do stress the barrel material and the factory created a stress point in the barrel. The factory pushed the material past yield to deform it with lettering. I am going to suggest that as a possible failure mode as to why that barrel cracked there, and possibly a inclusion that caused a seam at that location. My S&W M624's, which are 44 Specials, I can read the reverse print inside of the barrel. Smith and Wesson deformed the barrel enough, rolling their name and the caliber, that the lettering is visible from inside. They did create a weak point in the barrel by doing that. A better way of marking the barrel would be with a laser or water jet.

I would like to understand why leading might cause rings with jacketed and not with lead bullets. Both of the things are going down the barrel, both have lead cores, and both type of bullets presumably expand the barrel as the bullet traverses the tube. So why am I not reading of heavily leaded barrels bursting with cast bullets?
 
I just cleaned a rifle out after a whole lot of years. It's an old lever.. I have probably but only a few hundred through it, and at no point have I ever found fouling. A swap every session, and after all of these years, no build-up. About the only way to keep lead out of the barrel is constant cleaning, because any patch of roughness will just drag more off, and you just can't wipe it out.

The only way to remove a thick layer of plated on led I s to scrape it off. Penetrating solvents can help. The chore boy and other suggestions work because the hard surfaces scrape it away in tiny bits.

I don't know why this thread reminds me of my old coach. He suggested that we could prevent athletes foot by peeling on our feet in the shower. I never managed to understand him.
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I am sure there are not many methods, techniques and material I have or used that most are not aware of and or used. I have screens that are used for sifting anything that can be sifted. Instead of using the screens for sifting I use the screens for cleaning barrels. Something like a towel on a dowel , instead of the towel I use the screen.

I watched a demonstration of a bore snake being pulled through a shotgun bore; I was impressed. And then someone called for assistance in removing a bore snake from a barrel. And then; I thought about it for a few minutes then made a bore cleaning devise that was impossible to stick, lock up or go into a bind. I tried to impress the wife with the amount of work and effort I put into the devise, she seemed to think I went to a lot of effort of noting.

I traded a Spencer Civil War period lever action rifle for gun parts. The barrel had 6 bulges in it.

I purchased an 03 Rock Island rifle in Victoria, TX, I expressed an interest in the rifle but I had to be convinced the barrel had rifling. The gun store spent 2 hours trying to find a hint of rifling and finally rifling started to appear. All of my local resource people tried to convince me I wasted my money. And then; after cleaning the barrel the rifling looked new.

Point? No part of the barrel measured .308" in diameter, no part of the barrel measured .300" in diameter. Ever bullet fired from that rifle after the barrel caked up was sized to a diameter that measured less than .298". My thinking? If this rifle has not blown by now it is not going to. The serial number is about 10,000 above a low number and is period correct for 1911.

F. Guffey
 
At 10,000 above, it should be one of the double heat treated receivers that preceded the changeover to nickel steel. The one I got to try shooting was smooth as glass.

What happens with shooting out lead that seems be different is the thickness of the lead deposits is always even. In particular, if there is a constriction there is often lead bullet splatter build-up on the far side of it, so the jacketed bullet, rather than being swaged narrower at relatively low velocity, is allowed to pick up some speed before it encounters this lead deposit.

There was a WW I officer whose name escapes me at the moment, who was tasked to see what would happen if a bullet was stuck in the barrel and a second round was fired into it. As long as the stuck bullet was in the throat just beyond the tip of the bullet being fired into it, or no more than another inch or two down the barrel, both bullets were expelled without damaging the gun, though high pressure signs were evident on the case. But as soon as he got the stuck bullet three inches down the bore, firing the round behind it burst the barrel. Going a good bit further down the barrel with the obstruction, where a bullet would normally be after the pressure behind it had dropped a bit, the collision merely bulged the barrel badly, but didn't split it. So you can swage a bullet down quite a bit with chamber pressure as long as the swaging proceeds at starting speed. When you try to do it abruptly by very high speed collision is when you get catastrophic gun failures.

I don't know how frequently that sort of uneven leading down a bore occurs. Most guns have their heaviest metal fouling near the throat where they are when the pressure peaks. This may explain why so many get away with trying to shoot the lead out. It's also the case that most guns keep shooting even with a small bulge or ring in the barrel, so you can expect there are a lot of such guns out there whose owners are unaware of it.

But shooting the lead out is an illusion, anyway. If it worked, bullets with copper gas checks would clean the bore behind them, but they don't. They lead less because they eliminate gas cutting at the bullet base, but they still lead.

When you think about the shape of most jacketed bullet ogives, you realize trying to remove lead with one is by running into it with a pretty shallow wedge. It's like trying to plow by pushing the nose of a traditional toboggan into it. You'll iron out a mark in it, but the scraping action is nil. The shape is designed not to scrape against air, so it doesn't scrape lead, either. If you are lucky enough not to have a condition where you get a bulging or a bursting barrel, you still aren't cleaning the lead out. your just ironing layers of lead and carbon into the bore surface. Sure, a little bit of it will mark the jacketed bullet and leave with it, and then there will be some gas erosion of it, especially near the muzzle, but actual removal and cleaning? Not much.

Don't take my word for it. Try the bore brush experiment I described earlier. Get the bore looking clean and smooth. Dry patches polish it nicely. Then run the dry brush over it two or three times and look again.
 
I would like to understand why leading might cause rings with jacketed and not with lead bullets. Both of the things are going down the barrel, both have lead cores, and both type of bullets presumably expand the barrel as the bullet traverses the tube. So why am I not reading of heavily leaded barrels bursting with cast bullets?
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I think that you WOULD see it with lead bullets eventually if one were to allow the leading to progress enough--I know of at least one case where a Glock owner managed to disassemble his pistol using lead bullets. We know that was the cause because he was a forensic engineer and he documented his analysis.

But since lead bullets give/deform so easily compared to jacketed bullets it's much rarer for the leading to get bad enough for it to cause damage with lead bullets.

Jacketed bullets yield a LOT less than lead bullets do. So a bore that isn't leaded badly enough to be damaged with lead bullets can still be leaded enough to blow/deform when you put a jacketed round down it. Less give means more pressure and there are limits to what the barrel can take.
 
Own several pistols with well broke in barrels/polished. After a day of shooting hard cast lead, several rounds of jacketed remove what little leading there is. And yes, the leading is removed.

When younger, tried this once on newer 38 special, after shooting swaged lead bullets. Made quite the mess, and ironed on lead was 10 times harder to remove. Several lessons learned.

Have some older sa revolvers with non consistent larger cylinder throats. Am no longer cleaning out the lead down to bare steel on these cylinder throats, unless they are getting sold.

There are very few absolute answers.
 
When you think about the shape of most jacketed bullet ogives, you realize trying to remove lead with one is by running into it with a pretty shallow wedge. It's like trying to plow by pushing the nose of a traditional toboggan into it. You'll iron out a mark in it, but the scraping action is nil. The shape is designed not to scrape against air, so it doesn't scrape lead, either. If you are lucky enough not to have a condition where you get a bulging or a bursting barrel, you still aren't cleaning the lead out. your just ironing layers of lead and carbon into the bore surface.
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I purchased around 1000 rounds of Aquila 32 S&W Long and fired them all in my S&W M31.



This Aquila ammunition totally leaded the barrel to the point that I could not see the rifling. Point of impact also changed as the barrel leaded. My solution was to shoot my jacketed reloads through the revolver until the rifling became visible. This also restored a coherent point of impact with point of aim.

So, where did the lead go? I am going to challenge the idea it was just smoothed out but not ejected out of the barrel. If the leading was simply smoothed out then why am I now seeing the rifling? It is obvious to me that lead is being removed from the barrel, though it may have taken 30 or more shots with the barrel that heavily fouled.

I normally shoot a couple of cylinder fulls to clear out the leading from my revolvers, but I will shoot more if need be.
 
Just a guess, but maybe the jacketed bullets are undersize enough that you're getting a lot of bullet blowby and that's stripping some of the lead out of the grooves. That might also account for why there was no problem encountered as a result of shooting jacketed rounds down a bore that was effectively undersized due to lead buildup.

Might be interesting for you to slug the bore and compare the numbers to the dimensions of the jacketed bullets you're using.
 
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