Wild Bunch 1911

I finally got a change to run a little more rounds through my almost finished "wild bunch repro" AI!:D

My home brew reloads, 230 FMJ Berry's plated over 5.5 231 and some 185 grain HP over the same mix at ten yards.
Happy with the first group out of my 1st 1911 build out of cheap mixed parts.
Pistol ran like a charm.

My loads weren't very consistent, though. The 230's were running from 785 to 840, and the 185's were more wimpy from 685 to 751. Why would the lighter bullet yield a lower speed than the 230 grain with the same mix?

There is some satisfaction in shooting rounds out of a gun I built from scratch!
This group from ten yards standing offhand two handed. 25 shot group. I'll take it for now!
The one flyer on the left at 7 oclock was my flinch!
Those GI sights are tiny! I had on my reading glasses just to see them!:D
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HighValleyRanch said:
My loads weren't very consistent, though. The 230's were running from 785 to 840, and the 185's were more wimpy from 685 to 751. Why would the lighter bullet yield a lower speed than the 230 grain with the same mix?
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The lighter bullet accelerates quicker, so there's less time for pressure to build up behind it.

Try shooting a couple of each at night, or at twilight. Don't worry about hitting anything, just compare the fireball.
 
44 AMP said:
230gr PLATED
185gr Jacketed...

think that might have something to do with it??
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Just goes to show you about the value of assumptions. What he posted was:

My home brew reloads, 230 FMJ Berry's plated over 5.5 231 and some 185 grain HP over the same mix at ten yards.
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Your assumption was that the HPs were JHPs. My assumption was that, since the 230s were Berry's, and he said he loaded both types over the same powder charge, the HPs were also Berry's -- which are plated.

We'll have to wait for an update to find out ...
 
I'm pretty sure that they are plated Berry's hollowpoints.
My brother sent them to me and said they were Berry's. They don't look jacketed.
Flat base.
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I’m a Wild Bunch shooter. There are lots of misconceptions about what is allowed. I like using a support hand to shoot the 1911 which relegates me to the Modern category, as do the adjustable sights and a couple of other features on my 1911.

I think it would be fun to build a Traditional compliant pistol with the more visible sights allowed under the rules.

We shoot the pistol a lot in Wild Bunch, especially compared to cowboy action in which ten pistol shots per stage is just about universal.
 
I found that velocity can vary greatly if mixed brass is used, way more than I expected. I was testing ammo for a state IDPA match. I wish I had the actual results but I lost it. It was over 100 fps but I don't have the actual figures.
 
5.5gr of Win231? Try toning it down to 5.2 and recheck your velocity spread.

ETA: 5.3 is your published MAX load. Being that plated bullets are commonly treated as lead for powder charging purposes, you might even draw that down to 5.0gr. I use 5.0gr for my jacketed bullets for reference.
 
Shane Tuttle said:
5.5gr of Win231? Try toning it down to 5.2 and recheck your velocity spread.

ETA: 5.3 is your published MAX load. Being that plated bullets are commonly treated as lead for powder charging purposes, you might even draw that down to 5.0gr. I use 5.0gr for my jacketed bullets for reference.
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There are no published data for Win 231 with Berry's plated bullets.

When I started loading, I started out with Berry's 230-grain round nose bullets and Winchester 231. The data on the Hodgdon/Winchester web site gave a charge range of 4.3 to 5.3 grains. But the only two bullets they show are a jacketed FLAT point and a lead round nose. Both are loaded to a C.O.A.L. of 1.200".

Berry's call for loading that bullet to a C.O.A.L. of 1.237". When I began, they didn't even tell us that, so I selected a C.O.A.L. by taking ten factory Winchester White Box cartridges and measuring them. The average was 1.260", so that's what I used.

Just starting out, I didn't really know what I was doing but I wanted to be safe, so I started at 4.3 grains. The data (which, remember, was for a different bullet at a much shorter C.O.A.L. -- but I hadn't realized that at the time) suggested that I should expect 699 fps. In reality, it was nowhere near that. So I bumped the charge to mid-range, which should have given me a velocity of around 766 fps. I got about 650 fps.

So then I started learning. I realized that by using a longer C.O.A.L. I was leaving more case volume behind the bullet, thus lowering pressure (and velocity). Then I measured the actual bullets. I have a bag of 100 of actual Winchester 230-grain FMJ bullets. They are longer than the Berry's bullets. That means even if loaded to the same C.O.A.L. as Winchester bullets, the Berry's bullet's will result in lower pressure.

I use a Lee Turret Press with the Lee Autodisc powder measure. The aperture I use happens to drop 5.4 grains of Winchester 231, so that's what I use. My velocity isn't anywhere near 834 fps -- it's in the low to mid-700s because I'm loading to a much longer C.O.A.L. I have no doubt that I could go to 5.5 grains and not generate excessive pressure, but 5.3 grains works for me and that's what the powder measure drops. The next larger aperture would be quite a bit more than 5.5 grains.

I'm sure HighValleyRanch is safe using 5.5 grains.

Here's an article from Shooting Times to support that. I was pleased to see that the author uses Berry's bullets and Winchester 231, so the data are directly applicable to me.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/edito...-bullet-weight-gives-edge/99399#ixzz5D6mJdC7P
 
I stand corrected in saying, "your" max load when Berry's isn't used for their data. However:

1. It's not nearly as common to find Berry's compared to, say, Hornady, in use for type, weight, etc. in powder companies' reloading data.

2. COAL was never provided, what spring was installed, and by High Valley Ranch

3. His gun was put together with various parts rather than being a purchase off the shelf.

4. There are scores of posts here as well as other sites with people having great success using 5.0-5.2gr with just about every common bullet made.

5. I've used 5.0-5.2gr in every single one of my 1911 variants with zero issues of any kind.

With the limited knowledge provided of what HVR used and the 5 major points I provided, that's why I made my point to back the charge down. The primary reason was to offer a safer recommended load to address the velocity spread he noted. As it may not be common, it has been noted extreme spreads can happen if loading at, or beyond max loads. And, what may be the limit for one firearm may not be so for another. With a gun like this, I believed extra caution was in order.

Now, with the O.P. stating 5.0gr barely cycles for him, I still stand by my statement to lower the charge. Nowhere do I see in the rules a 16lb spring has to be used. Install a lighter spring, go with a lower charge level, and document the spread. But, what do I know. I'm just a guy behind the monitor.

High Valley, if it's still to much for your liking, then I would need to know what primers and cases you were using. I personally haven't see a large spread in different cases of similar quality. But, as pete2 said, it can happen. If it were ME, I personally wouldn't chase down the spread issue. That grouping you have at 30 feet, OFFHAND, is impressive enough as it is with a gun that isn't exactly fitted together like a Les Baer or something.
 
Thanks for the input Shane. My OAL is 1.24 with the Berry's.
I've used this load for my Kahr p45 as well and the Kahr really likes it with ragged hole groups and functioning. With the Kahr's polygonal shorter barrel it's running in the low 700 to 750 range.

The spring on the 1911 is a standard 16 pound spring.
I was trying to replicate "hard ball" loads, but in my past bullseye days I was loading more like the 5.2 grains for my lead semi wad cutter target loads.

I got the plated Berry's because I want a round I can shoot in my Kahr as well. I have reduced power springs so if I can find more primers, I can experiment with lighter loads in all the .45 guns.

I'm using mixed range brass and what is left of my CCI LPP 300's supply.
 
On my list after....
1.an original WWI flap holster
2. smooth MSH with lanyard loop (already bought)
3. wide spur hammer
4. original WWI lanyard
5. repro ammo boxes (already bought)
 
Did you get the ammo boxes from the guy on eBay? I've been very satisfied with the 50-round boxes, but not very happy with the 20-round boxes. His dinky little adhesive patches keep the flaps closed for about 5 minutes, max.

Fortunately, the 20-round boxes aren't for use with 1911s. A friend who was a tanker in the Army told me those are for use with the .45 caliber "grease gun."
 
If you want a genuine WWI era holster, be prepared to pay more than you think they are worth. However, if you can be happy with a repop, those are available at reasonable prices.

Recently I picked up another early M1916 holster, but I had to pay a hundred bucks for it. Worth it to me because I have an affinity for the old stuff and this one was by a maker I didn't already have an example of.

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Shown with my 1914 Springfield 1911 along with some WWI accessories.
IMG_9692_Fotor-L.jpg
 
Got my steel smooth MSH with lanyard ring installed.
Photos later.

I found this photo of a 1913 model, and I know that they originally came with the diamond checkered grips, but this one is without the diamond pattern?
They look old enough to be original, but were these replaced?
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