Double Naught Spy
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Are we going to go after the Tom Carter (Tombstone) incident as well?
Why you can never be too careful
- Thread starter Aguila Blanca
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To me, there’s a marked difference between a negligent discharge at someone’s home.
This was a fatality caused at a workplace, between employees using employer’s equipment.
Safety was ignored in several steps along the way, from what I gather. This all ultimately falls on the employer in my book.
Just my opinions as a lay person...
This was a fatality caused at a workplace, between employees using employer’s equipment.
Safety was ignored in several steps along the way, from what I gather. This all ultimately falls on the employer in my book.
Just my opinions as a lay person...
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Considering that there is absolutely nothing similar between the two cases other than that each involved a firearm, I don't find that to be even a little bit surprising.stagpanther said:
A gun is a gun
A gun is a gun; regardless of whether it is a prop, a toy, an ornament, a museum display artifact. I could understand if it is a kid naive enough to point and dry fire a firearm, but for a grown up to having accidently discharged a firearm and kill another person, it had to be treated as someone inept enough that lacks any commonsense. Every firearm, prop or real, should be treated with respect.
A gun is a gun; regardless of whether it is a prop, a toy, an ornament, a museum display artifact. I could understand if it is a kid naive enough to point and dry fire a firearm, but for a grown up to having accidently discharged a firearm and kill another person, it had to be treated as someone inept enough that lacks any commonsense. Every firearm, prop or real, should be treated with respect.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I respectfully submit that the Baldwin case was not "accidental," it was negligent. It also wasn't a "misfire." The firearm and the cartridge both performed exactly as designed.44 AMP said:
Characterizing it as "accidental," IMHO, devalues the word "accidental" and again blurs the distinction between an accidental discharge and a negligent discharge. Both may be unintentional, but they are quite different. The Baldwin discharge was not an "accident." He pointed the gun at a person and he pulled the trigger. That wasn't an accident. Granted, he didn't intend for the gun to fire a live bullet, but that's where the negligence comes in. And I'm sure the courts will expend copious amounts of effort in determining who was negligent, and to what degree.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
We have a thread with nearly 200 posts that I honestly thought it wouldn't last 20 due to the nature of it.
Two schools of thought:
1. I have no pride in being wrong and seeing it stay mostly on topic with solid member input.
2. A gentle reminder to keep it that way. Therefore, let's refrain from debating similarities/differences of Rittenhouse's case to Baldwin's. As 44AMP requested earlier, let's stay with discussing on what information is provided.
Two schools of thought:
1. I have no pride in being wrong and seeing it stay mostly on topic with solid member input.
2. A gentle reminder to keep it that way. Therefore, let's refrain from debating similarities/differences of Rittenhouse's case to Baldwin's. As 44AMP requested earlier, let's stay with discussing on what information is provided.
As an aside comment to "accidental" shooting, if you go through many of the government publications on automobile or traffic related deaths you will pretty consistently find the word "crash": "Automobile crash", "traffic crash" and similar. The word "accident" is mostly not used because because the publications are wanting to reinforce the idea that crashes have a cause and don't just happen.
I worked with the New Mexico University as one of the workers that prepared annual state traffic crash statistics and the word "accident" appeared in none of the versions by design.
I worked with the New Mexico University as one of the workers that prepared annual state traffic crash statistics and the word "accident" appeared in none of the versions by design.
Double Naught Spy
New member
You know, we can't even get the people in the gun community to correctly make the distinction between accidental discharge and negligent discharge. So expecting the general public or media to make these distinctions and use the terms appropriately is something of a fool's errand.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
It may be a fool's errand -- or it may mean that we're just not trying hard enough.Double Naught Spy said:
But you have a good point -- it has to start with us. If people who are supposed to be knowledgeable about firearms don't know the difference, we can't expect the general public to know the difference.
The matter is complicated by the fact that in general usage, there is no difference, up to a point, but beyond that, there is.
In rough general terms, an accident is unplanned, unexpected and unintentional.
Negligence is failing to do the correct thing.
As I see it, the Baldwin shooting was BOTH. it was an accident, because it was unplanned (the discharge of a live round was certainly not planned), it was unexpected, and it was unintentional.
IT was ALSO negligent, because Baldwin did not do the right thing(s).
Why he didn't is open to speculation, until and unless he gives us a statement telling us why he did what he did, and didn't do.
Once again, I go back to "I didn't think it was loaded" being an explanation, NEVER an excuse,
the only real issue with just stating it was accidental is that most people associate "accident" with not being to blame. That is a social convention commonly used, but its not in the definition of the word in any of the dictionaries I checked. If you find one that does include blame in the definition of "accident" I'd be interested in knowing which one.
And do be aware that most dictionaries state (often in very small print
) that their definitions reflect the definition of the word in common usage. (emphasis added)
SO, if the general public is mis-using a term, and that becomes common usage, then the dictionary will be changed to reflect that.
In rough general terms, an accident is unplanned, unexpected and unintentional.
Negligence is failing to do the correct thing.
As I see it, the Baldwin shooting was BOTH. it was an accident, because it was unplanned (the discharge of a live round was certainly not planned), it was unexpected, and it was unintentional.
IT was ALSO negligent, because Baldwin did not do the right thing(s).
Why he didn't is open to speculation, until and unless he gives us a statement telling us why he did what he did, and didn't do.
Once again, I go back to "I didn't think it was loaded" being an explanation, NEVER an excuse,
the only real issue with just stating it was accidental is that most people associate "accident" with not being to blame. That is a social convention commonly used, but its not in the definition of the word in any of the dictionaries I checked. If you find one that does include blame in the definition of "accident" I'd be interested in knowing which one.
And do be aware that most dictionaries state (often in very small print
) that their definitions reflect the definition of the word in common usage. (emphasis added) SO, if the general public is mis-using a term, and that becomes common usage, then the dictionary will be changed to reflect that.
"And do be aware that most dictionaries state (often in very small print) that their definitions reflect the definition of the word in common usage. (emphasis added)
SO, if the general public is mis-using a term, and that becomes common usage, then the dictionary will be changed to reflect that."
Excellent point and why am preferring dictionaries at least 30 years old.
SO, if the general public is mis-using a term, and that becomes common usage, then the dictionary will be changed to reflect that."
Excellent point and why am preferring dictionaries at least 30 years old.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Update: Baldwin admits that he pulled the hammer back and he pointed the gun at the cinematographer -- but maintains that it wasn't his fault. He also maintains that he didn't pull the trigger.
I was going to comment, but my views are expressed very well by the firearms expert cited in this link, Mr. Gutkowski:
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021...no-guilt-over-the-death-of-halyna-hutchins-a/
I was going to comment, but my views are expressed very well by the firearms expert cited in this link, Mr. Gutkowski:
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021...no-guilt-over-the-death-of-halyna-hutchins-a/
Not wishing to make light of the tragedy - a woman was killed and a man injured - but the irony of the excuses just floors me.
"I didn't know it was loaded!"
"The gun just went off!"
Is there no originality left in the world?
These excuses must be as old as firearms as a class of weapons.
I suppose nobody with a bow-and-arrow or a sling ever 'didn't know it was loaded' or 'it just went off', but if we could interview the first person who ever mistakenly killed someone with a matchlock, wheellock, or caplock I bet those excuses would be uttered.
Sorry, just sick of hypocrisy and self-serving news reports.
"I didn't know it was loaded!"
"The gun just went off!"
Is there no originality left in the world?
These excuses must be as old as firearms as a class of weapons.
I suppose nobody with a bow-and-arrow or a sling ever 'didn't know it was loaded' or 'it just went off', but if we could interview the first person who ever mistakenly killed someone with a matchlock, wheellock, or caplock I bet those excuses would be uttered.
Sorry, just sick of hypocrisy and self-serving news reports.
Yes, I've been scratching my head at the initial reports in the news that only stated his claim of not pulling the trigger.
Every gun guy was thinking the same thing, it's a Single action army, he had to draw the hammer back.
Further detail this AM indicates he drew the hammer to almost full cock and apparently released it.
That will make an SSA go bang.
Every gun guy was thinking the same thing, it's a Single action army, he had to draw the hammer back.
Further detail this AM indicates he drew the hammer to almost full cock and apparently released it.
That will make an SSA go bang.
Big tears; Bad performance.
Sure hope he doesn't do another interview as it cuts into my Gun-Smoke time !!!
Be Safe !!!
As much as I dislike the man and unless they find new evidenvce I have to agree that it was an accidental. Leading up to that final event, It most certainly was 100% negligenece due to his ignorance and vanity. ......
Sure hope he doesn't do another interview as it cuts into my Gun-Smoke time !!!
Be Safe !!!
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Uuuuuh... No
A stock reproduction SAA has four distinct "catch" points in pulling the hammer back.
Any of those points would stop the hammer fall he describes.
Baldwin's story is toast -- barring someone having filed the hammer notches off.
post: It was not "an accident" which implies no fault.
It was at best, negligent homicde: the killing of another person through
reckless or negligent behavior. It differs from other forms of homicide
due to the implied lack of malice and intent.
.
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