Why won't the major ammunition companies come out with 45-70 + P loads ?

Mike Irwin said:
I don't see why a .45-70 +P load would be any more of a liability than, say, a .38 Super +P or a .38 Special +P or +P+.

Tons of older guns out there that will chamber those rounds but in which it could be an unsafe situation.

Remember when Winchester brought out the .375 Winchester? It would handily fit into older guns chambered for .38-55.

Apparently not too many fears of liability there.
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I'm sure that's true but there's got to be SOME level of liability concern in today's society. My guess is that the market is large enough to off-set the liability concern with those rounds but they conclude that it's not with the 45-70.

I could be wrong, I thought I was once, but I was mistaken.:D
 
Brian..the 45-70 ammo that is out there is gonna sell no matter...hot or not....So the major ammo manufacturers still make money and don't worry about the liability issue....Those of us that want it hotter will reload or buy from BB..etc....(thats OK by me..let the smaller guys make money too)
 
I've seen two old .38 revolvers that were splayed open when fired with .38 Spl. +P+.

"and even tho a 375 win may chamber in a 38-55..it is not actually chambered for that round...."

True, but as so many courts in the US have so eloquently stated with numerous liability holdings, a consumers crass stupidity is no bar to a manufacturer having to dig very deeply into their corporate pockets.

But, that said, I truly suspect that it has less to do with fear of liability and a lot more to do with the fact that as of a few years ago the .45-70 was pretty close to the bottom third of sales lists for ammunition and reloading dies sold.

Not great, but enough to keep it financially viable.
 
Just buy rifles in .450 Marlin then you'll have your +P .45-70. If enough people want it you might even resurrect the cartridge and rifles chambered for it. The popularity of the .45-70 killed the .450 Marlin, and if I had to choose between the two I'd choose the .45-70 as well.
 
The popularity of the .45-70 killed the .450 Marlin, and if I had to choose between the two I'd choose the .45-70 as well.
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taylorce....Amen brother....I buy hot 45-70 ammo for my 2 Marlins from a fella out of Big D..cheaper than BB and gets the job done....
 
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Keg - just curious, but do you have velocity data on those hot loaded 45-70s? Looks like did a number on your hog.

I've hunted whitetail with standard 45-70 loads but have always wanted to try something a bit hotter.
 
I was waiting for someone to remember the 450 Marlin. That is exactly what it was designed as, a hot 45-70. The original 45-70 case is not up to the pressure.
 
From a bit of research and some info already mentioned here , I found the 450 Marlin is factory loaded with average max pressure of 43500 psi and the 45-70 is kept below 28000 psi for most factory loads ! I'd be curious to hear what pressures Buffalo Bore and Garrett 45-70 ammo is loaded to ? Loading data for the Ruger No 1 45-70 is approaching 50000 psi from what I have read !
 
Because sooner or later, some DOLT would shove one into a trap-door Springfield.....and blow himself up. Then, he'd sue the ammo company over the "defective" ammo.

It is as simple as that.

People do some amazingly STUPID things regarding guns. Always bear in mind, MOST people are not "gun enthusiasts"......and know very little about them. Even lots of shooters are woefully ignorant. Sad but true.
 
From a bit of research and some info already mentioned here , I found the 450 Marlin is factory loaded with average max pressure of 43500 psi and the 45-70 is kept below 28000 psi for most factory loads ! I'd be curious to hear what pressures Buffalo Bore and Garrett 45-70 ammo is loaded to ? Loading data for the Ruger No 1 45-70 is approaching 50000 psi from what I have read !
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You could look it up just as easily, Buffalo Bore rounds meet or exceed .450 Marlin performance. I haven't looked up Garrett ammunition before. If you really want a cool repeater that will handle #1 pressures for shooting the .45-70 check gunbroker for a Siamese Mauser that has been converted to it. You should be able to wring out performance close to .458 Win Mag levels, but that takes all the fun out of shooting the .45-70 IMO.
 
KreyZ....I will get that info to U....As far as doin a number on that hog..that shot could have been most any centerfire caliber and been the same result....

U definitely know when U are shooting Buffalo Bore compared to the other
reduced loads....
 
Garrett's ammo is loaded to 35,000 psi...the info is on his website. He used to load it to 40k psi (which is safe to do in my experience) but chose to lower it for a variety of reasons.

There are a lot of myths and misconceptions about +P 45-70 loads...I've fired a good many rounds of them loaded to 40k psi and above...in the proper rifle, they are perfectly safe.
 
+P type loads are generally not manufactured for two reasons. There are still thousands of 100+ year old rifles out there chambered for the round and inevitably some fool would shoot some in a trapdoor.
The other reason is such loads are unnecessary unless you are hunting somethng like Elephant. The standard 45/70 is more than enough for any North American game and hot rodding it only produces painful recoil.
 
he'd sue the ammo company over the "defective" ammo.
It is as simple as that.
People do some amazingly STUPID things regarding guns.
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Absolutely agree. Just the other day on this site, there was a gentleman who had purchased a Spanish 1916 short rifle and did not know what it was chambered for. A friend told him it was a 308, so he chambered a 308 Winchester cartridge (had to force it to close, according to his post) and fired it. Couldn't get it open, so it went to the smith. Turned out it was 7X57. WOW!!!:eek:

When I worked as a smith in NV, a customer walked in with an otherwise almost new Python that had a badly sprung frame. Wanted to know what was wrong with it. When we asked what ammo he had been shooting, he told us they were his reloads, 4227 and a 158 gr JHP forced down and crimped. We took some of the loads apart, and the cartridges were overloaded with 50% too much powder! The guy didn't know he was supposed to only put a certain amount of powder into the case, he just filled 'er up!!

A customer walked in and bought a box of Norma factory 308 Winchester ammo for his rifle. He came back really upset, had some short words inserted into his conversation about the ammo not working, and all because his friend had told him to buy Norma ammo. Asked to see the rifle, it was a Schulz & Larsen in 308 Norma Magnum. We explained the situation to him as well as we could and calmed him down. Calmed him down until he found out how much 308 Norma Magnum ammo would cost. He left the ammo and walked out of the store.

So yes, people do stupid things. That's why the factory ammo for a 45-70 is so wimpy.
 
These are more +P than I'd ever want to shoot in .45-70: Garrett's 500gr. Hornady copper-clad steel-jacketed flatnose solids at 1530 fps, or their 540gr. SuperHardCast Hammerhead at 1550fps.

The 500's box says, "Fire only in Marlins and Winchesters." The 540's box says, "Fire only in Marlin rifles built since 1998."

www.garrettcartridges.com has a lot of interesting information about the caliber and their loads, including a great piece on penetration relative to velocity and bullet weight.

I was all set to to be offended, relative to my Ruger No.1, but I read on their site or somewhere else that hunting dangerous-game with a No.1 is recommended against because of the inability to get off a rapid second shot.
 
I do reload.... my warm load is a Hornady 350 gr FP pushed out the barrel with a good charge of IMR 4198 in my Ruger No. 1 rifle ! My mild lever action load is a 400 gr hardcast FP bullet pushed by a charge of SR4759 powder ! Most game I've harvested with the 45-70 cal. has been with factory loaded 300 gr ammo though, so far anyway !
 
I have in front of me a box of 45-70 Magnum by Buffalo Bore. It has a warning label that reads:

Warning!

USE THIS AMUNITION IN FIREARMS THAT ARE IN GOOD CONDITION, AND ORIGINALY CHAMBERED FOR THIS CARTRIDGE.

Writen in all caps as it appears on the box. The warning part is three times larger than the following script.

Item 8A 430 Gr. L.FN-GC (1925 F.PS/3537 ft. lbs.)
Item 8B 405 Gr J.F.N (200 F.P.S./3597 ft. lbs.)
Item 8C 350 Gr J.F.N (2150 F.P.S./2591 ft/lbs)
Item 8D 500 Gr F.MJ.F.N (1650 F.P.S./ 2931 ft lbs)
Item 8E 300 Gr. J.F.N (2350 F.P.S./3676 ft. lbs.)

All are head stamped Lever Gun 45-70 Mag

The guy that gave me the brass was shooting them out of a Marlin Guide Gun if I rember correctly. He said recoil was stout to say the least. The ones he shot were 350 grain JFN.
 
Thought I posted a reply that reloading is the way to go. Anyway, to answer the OPs original question and not being a representative of a major ammo company, I'd say that the demand for such high-performance .45-70 loads isn't worth their while to produce.

Since smaller outfits like Buffalo and Garrett produce what you want, the credible amount of demand for those loads is served well enough. At least, that's my best guess.

Hope you use a lead-sled, or at least a newfangled slip-on recoil pad when you try the big beasts out. The only event in which I would be very happy to fire a round of that power is at a trophy Cape Buffalo, and that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime short of winning the lottery. But the thread is about you, OP, not me, so I hope you find the round that suits you and that you bag a trophy that your grandchildren will marvel about long after you are gone. What better memories are there?
 
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